Dyno test results when injecting 100% methanol 50/50 water/meth mix 80/20 etc.

Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Hey guys,

I was looking for dyno tests people have done here trying different mixtures % of water & methanol 50/50/, 80/20 etc.
And then a dyno test running 100% methanol.
What mixture worked best for knock reduction?

I have read here & different forums that running 100% meth showed the most gain, I would just like to see the results.

I tried the search feature & did not come up w/much.
Any help much appreciated.
Thank you.
 
50/50 caused a 4% loss of power over 100% methanol. No detonation either way. I did an a-b-a test. The only thing changed was the alky/water %. All runs were on the same dyno within 10 minutes of each other.
 
Its a hard test as each different concentration of water responds to different volumes.

Example.. straight water would use a very small nozzle vs straight alcohol. You cant do twin M15's on straight water and get awya with it like you can on straight methanol. You'll hydro the motor on water whereas very hard to do on methanol.

Water displaces fuel whereas methanol adds fuel. So if you left the car alone.. going from straight methanol to straight water.. now the tuning is off. Guys that tune on water go into the mid 12's for targets.. methanol mid 10's for target.

The big deal is temperature and flash. When you add water the flash temp goes up on the liquid. Meth is 70 df and water is 180 df for flash. If the liquid shot in doesnt flash, it will go to the 5 and 6 cyclinders at the rear of the motor in liquid form. This is a big issue especially when temps outside go down and it gets cold.

Testing I did on a Buick.. stock turbo was 16 PSI at 18 degree's timing pump gas. Using water injection got it up to 19 psi boost. 50/50 got it to 24 psi. straight methanol buried the guage without showing knock. 30 PSI. They all work. But I didnt use a 15 GPH nozzle on water, that would have drowned it out. It all works.. if you like to tinker and tune.. this may be an avenue for you.

I'll quote Grumpy.. "Give it a whirl... let us know how you make out ;)"
 
x3 100% meth has always netted me the best MPH and tune capability. Look at it this way.....If you are trying to cool the air and supplement fuel the best what would rather use?
 
I'd like to clear up something i heard, If i was in a pintch an out of Alky, Windex Glass cleaner could be used?
 
Thanks guys,

any other dyno testing you guys have done?
Results?

I am not debating what works better than the other, just would like to hear peoples actual tests.
Thank again.
 
Thanks guys,

any other dyno testing you guys have done?
Results?

I am not debating what works better than the other, just would like to hear peoples actual tests.
Thank again.
Ive done a lot of tests. Methanol with no added works best. Methanol absorbs water readily if exposed to air so the percent of water will increase over time if the methanol isnt in a sealed container.
 
I'd like to clear up something i heard, If i was in a pintch an out of Alky, Windex Glass cleaner could be used?
Go to Autozone or Advance and buy some yellow bottle HEET. That is 100% methanol. Its expensive at 2.29 for 12 ounces.. but when your in a pinch.. it is what it is.

X2.. windex has ammonia.. bye bye head gaskets :eek:
 
when i was trying to be a mad scientist.
i used
1-Water
2-windshield washer fluid
3-windshield washer fluid prestone yellow bottle X2 the alcohol content of regular washer fluid and it even says flammable on the bottle.
4-Heet yellow bottle.
and i got ZERO KR with any of them and pushed the boost up to the 28-34 PSI
from what i remember water gave me the leanest readings..

BTW once i got Julio's kit i only use M1.
 
Hey guys,

I was looking for dyno tests people have done here trying different mixtures % of water & methanol 50/50/, 80/20 etc.
And then a dyno test running 100% methanol.
What mixture worked best for knock reduction?

When you inject alcohol you're injecting a fuel that is known to allow you to make more power than gasoline . It cools and it introduces more oxygen to the motor and it burns differently. Since you're injecting a fuel,you're creating a richer mixture. You'll want to adjust the mixture for optimum performance. Once you achieve optimum performance with your mixture and you then add water,you've changed your tune and you need to re-adjust. This always has been and always will be an apples to oranges comparison.

Because(as Julio has pointed out)water flashes at a higher temp ,it's going to work better in a different/hotter environment. This is another reason it is an apples to oranges comparison. However,the application where water shines(on a turbocharged engine)is when you inject it into the very hot environment of the compressor. Water flashes very well in this application. It keeps the air from being heated in the first place. Generally speaking,the Buick community refuses to accept this very old,proven tried,and true method of extracting the most power out of a forced inducted engine. We continue to heat the air first which makes the turbo work harder and run out of breath sooner. Then we cool it down after the fact. Because pre-turbo water injection cools the air as it is being compressed,which causes less of a work load on the turbo,your turbo doesn't run out of breath as soon as it would otherwise. This causes your turbo to breath like a larger/more efficient turbo.

Nothing on the planet cools like water does. If we use water for this application,we extract the most power out of the turbo charged engine with the most efficiency. If we don't do this we are leaving a lot on the table.

After we do this we can debate fuels,but nothing takes the place of this. Not even alcohol.

Please stop comparing alcohol to water

http://www.riceracing.com.au/water-injection.htm

http://wannaspeed.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=181

 
Go to Autozone or Advance and buy some yellow bottle HEET. That is 100% methanol. Its expensive at 2.29 for 12 ounces.. but when your in a pinch.. it is what it is.

X2.. windex has ammonia.. bye bye head gaskets :eek:

Ok, thanks!!..One last question,While dynoing my car, was told it's better to turn the adjustment knob to full,Any advantages or disadvantages on doing that?
 
Ok, thanks!!..One last question,While dynoing my car, was told it's better to turn the adjustment knob to full,Any advantages or disadvantages on doing that?
Use the alcohol for controlling knock. If you arbitrarily flood the motor it can over saturate the air and distribution becomes a problem.

No. I don't crank the knob then tune. I start with knob at 5.5 and low boost and work from there. If it ends up needing position 8.. Meaning cranked all the way up, then it needs to go to a twin nozzle and start back at 5.5
 
had 2 tests here.. Driving the car on the street. Methanol straight worked great !!! NO knock @ 25#s . Then a buddy came over and wanted to go for a "ride". Low on Meth BUT I had a 50/50 mix I had taken out when Julio told me to use it straight. Sooooo fill it up and away we went.. Had knock.. Tried it a few times.. Same results. Drove it home an got some straight meth the next night at the track an NEVER looked back. I always have some here especially feeding 3 cars :eek:
Next test was at the track. Back to back runs.. high 9 car was like a tenth and a half difference.. Forget the MPH.

That was the last of my "testing a cheap way out".. Very stupid thing to do when ya have a new $1500 rebuilt motor and ya blow it up for being stupid :p
 
When you inject alcohol you're injecting a fuel that is known to allow you to make more power than gasoline . It cools and it introduces more oxygen to the motor and it burns differently. Since you're injecting a fuel,you're creating a richer mixture. You'll want to adjust the mixture for optimum performance. Once you achieve optimum performance with your mixture and you then add water,you've changed your tune and you need to re-adjust. This always has been and always will be an apples to oranges comparison.

Because(as Julio has pointed out)water flashes at a higher temp ,it's going to work better in a different/hotter environment. This is another reason it is an apples to oranges comparison. However,the application where water shines(on a turbocharged engine)is when you inject it into the very hot environment of the compressor. Water flashes very well in this application. It keeps the air from being heated in the first place. Generally speaking,the Buick community refuses to accept this very old,proven tried,and true method of extracting the most power out of a forced inducted engine. We continue to heat the air first which makes the turbo work harder and run out of breath sooner. Then we cool it down after the fact. Because pre-turbo water injection cools the air as it is being compressed,which causes less of a work load on the turbo,your turbo doesn't run out of breath as soon as it would otherwise. This causes your turbo to breath like a larger/more efficient turbo.

Nothing on the planet cools like water does. If we use water for this application,we extract the most power out of the turbo charged engine with the most efficiency. If we don't do this we are leaving a lot on the table.

After we do this we can debate fuels,but nothing takes the place of this. Not even alcohol.

Please stop comparing alcohol to water

http://www.riceracing.com.au/water-injection.htm

http://wannaspeed.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=181


Man its like this. Theory without results means nothing.

Test is simple.. tune car perfectly and record a time slip. Next switch the water on.. retune it.. and record a time slip. Same boost, same timing, similar air fuel. Note IAT temps as well. This can be done with or without methanol injection. A car on E85 would be awesome as its one less thing to deal with.

Post results.

I'd love to see them. Datalogs of before and after would be great as well..

This is the acid test.. when theory gets put to the real test. Up until that is done.. there is nothing.
 
Man its like this. Theory without results means nothing.


Test is simple.. tune car perfectly and record a time slip. Next switch the water on.. retune it.. and record a time slip. Same boost, same timing, similar air fuel. Note IAT temps as well.

Spraying 100% meth just before the throttle body will always make more power and always does for the reasons I stated above. The biggest and most obvious reason is because it adds oxygen. It sounds like you think I'm disputing this. I'm not.

I stated that this is an apples to oranges comparison because water and alcohol have two completely different areas of use in which they shine. You identified this when you compared their two different flash points. Alcohol doesn't do what water does and water doesn't do what alcohol does. They both do their own wonderful things. I'll say it again,If you don't inject water into the compressor of a turbo charger you won't receive the results of the active power producing role that water plays in the production of power in the turbo charged motor. It's the evaporation of the water that cools. It wont evaporate as much when you inject it in the cooler environment after the turbo and it won't increase the efficiency of the turbo. The same thing happens to alcohol that is injected into an environment that is cooler than its flash point. They serve two different purposes and shouldn't be compared.

However if you want real life results of what injecting water into the compressor does,read this.

http://enginehistory.org/Frank WalkerWeb1.pdf
 
I understand all that you say completely. I also understand the theory completely. I also understand the water injection would be a standalone.

My point is you dont see any gains in "Real Life" on a Buick for example to offset the cost of the system. This is where I ask for before and after proof when used on our cars :) hence the quote above "A car on E85 would be awesome as its one less thing to deal with." So if the test mule was on E-85 it would show gain using a water nozzle before the turbo.. This is where hard data is required.. And noticeable gain(HP) to offset the cost of said system. So the realization on paper and practice is what i'm looking for.. so when someone asks looking for "real data" I dont bring up Ricardo's papers from WWII.

So whose gonna try this? ;)
 
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