Mixed Meth and Water Track Testing

[esinger]

I went to the track yesterday and decided to test a water and methanol mixture. I didn't measure precisely, but I'm guessinng it's around 70% Meth and 30% Water.

Please excuse me if I'm not being too scientific here, but these are the things I observered. The first observation is the mix changed my tune, I'm running the TT SD Chip and on the 100% meth tune the ECM was pulling fuel to reach my target A/F ratio (Set to 10.7). Running the water/meth mixture, the ECM is adding more fuel to keep the same A/F ratio. Also the Intake manifold temps took a nice nose dive. What was previously high 180 to mid 190 degree temps are now around 165 degree temps. Outside temps were about the same as other runs I've had, high 60s to low 70s

On my last pass yesterday, I was able to run slightly more boost than before, aournd 1 psi more, with absolutely no knock. I haven't tested my new upper boost limit, but I'm going to try raising it some more next time (Which is probably today).

So far the only negative thing I've run into so far is the car starts trying trying really hard to achieve the correct A/F ratio once it goes to 3rd gear. In the current tune, the timing drops from 23.6 degrees in to 19.4 My current thinking is that this is too big of a drop which makes the ECM battle to get back to the correct A/F ratio. On the track it pulls really strong on the first 1/2, but you can feel hesitations on the last 1/2 of the track.

Attached is the powerlogger file from my last run yesterday. My ET was 8.01 and MPH was 86. This was not my personal best. This track is considered the slower of the two tracks in the area. 90% of the time I go to the faster of the two (Plus it's only 10 minutes away as opposed to 45 minutes away).

 

[Jerryl]

I went to the track yesterday and decided to test a water and methanol mixture. I didn't measure precisely, but I'm guessinng it's around 70% Meth and 30% Water.

Please excuse me if I'm not being too scientific here, but these are the things I observered. The first observation is the mix changed my tune, I'm running the TT SD Chip and on the 100% meth tune the ECM was pulling fuel to reach my target A/F ratio (Set to 10.7). Running the water/meth mixture, the ECM is adding more fuel to keep the same A/F ratio. Also the Intake manifold temps took a nice nose dive. What was previously high 180 to mid 190 degree temps are now around 165 degree temps. Outside temps were about the same as other runs I've had, high 60s to low 70s

On my last pass yesterday, I was able to run slightly more boost than before, aournd 1 psi more, with absolutely no knock. I haven't tested my new upper boost limit, but I'm going to try raising it some more next time (Which is probably today).

So far the only negative thing I've run into so far is the car starts trying trying really hard to achieve the correct A/F ratio once it goes to 3rd gear. In the current tune, the timing drops from 23.6 degrees in to 19.4 My current thinking is that this is too big of a drop which makes the ECM battle to get back to the correct A/F ratio. On the track it pulls really strong on the first 1/2, but you can feel hesitations on the last 1/2 of the track.

Attached is the powerlogger file from my last run yesterday. My ET was 8.01 and MPH was 86. This was not my personal best. This track is considered the slower of the two tracks in the area. 90% of the time I go to the faster of the two (Plus it's only 10 minutes away as opposed to 45 minutes away).

Eric, very
I "think" that with water/meth mix, you may need to get the target AFR back to the 10.9-11.1 range.
Where is the IAT located?

 

[Jerryl]

.....Where is the IAT located?

Correction;
I meant "MAT".

 

[esinger]

Correction;
I meant "MAT".

It's located in front of the the intake. Right above the thermostat housing.

I went to the track again today. Added timing to the 3/4 WOT worked out the hesitation and the A/F ratio and it didn't change wildly like it did yesterday. I repeated my personal best again with an ET of 7.88 at 87.81 MPH. I did have a slight bit of knock, but it's hard for me to pinpoint where it's coming from. The only single achievement today was not a single run in the 8 second range. 4 runs in the 7.9s with the single 7.8 It's seems I've hit a wall that I can't easily get past the 7.9s. My buddy Pat thinks the TA49 is done and it's time to go with a more efficient turbo

Here's the Powerlogger file of my best run, MAT shows a high of 166 degrees.

 

[Boost231]

logs are looking good. i would really try to firgure out that knock. kinda weird. i looked at your logs for about 30min or so. Also from what i have gathered over the last few days my powerlogger wasnt logging the air temps correctly. they where way off according to my other tool. powerlogger would show 208 IAT's but really it was over 255. just something to look into.

 

[Boost231]

o also looks as if your 2nd gear is slipping alittle.

 

[esinger]

Thanks for the review Brent. Jerryl may be onto something about playing around with the A/F ratio, I really didn't mess with it at all yesterday. I feel the car is running better with the water/meth mix, but it's thrown my tune off and I've got to figure out what it needs now.

How did you determine that your IAT's were not accurate?

 

[esinger]

o also looks as if your 2nd gear is slipping alittle.

I noticed that as well in that one log, I'm going to have to check all 11 logs from this weekend and see if it's showing the same sign.

I don't feel too bad about that. I've been itching to pull the tranny out and do the Richard Clark tranny class

 

[Jerryl]

Eric,
Good job with the SD chip!
It is NICE to have "most ALL needed ajustments" isn't it? :wink:


Edit;
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/al...265735-alky-widebad-readings.html#post2000649

 

[Boost231]

air/fuel is a trickey deal. you have to see what your car likes. right now im shooting for 11.0 but that might change. last weekend i did some tunning. car ran good but my goal was to get the IAT temps down with the alky. but the problem is i dont want to pull over 25 percent of fuel due to the possibility of a alky pump failure.

 

[Jerryl]

air/fuel is a trickey deal. you have to see what your car likes. right now im shooting for 11.0 but that might change. last weekend i did some tunning. car ran good but my goal was to get the IAT temps down with the alky. but the problem is i dont want to pull over 25 percent of fuel due to the possibility of a alky pump failure.

Good point.
I would justr run water, and run the pump real low.
That way you are no displacing fuel, and get the cooling.

Is that 11.0 on race gas?

 

[Jerryl]

Thanks for the review Brent. Jerryl may be onto something about playing around with the A/F ratio, I really didn't mess with it at all yesterday. I feel the car is running better with the water/meth mix, but it's thrown my tune off and I've got to figure out what it needs now.

How did you determine that your IAT's were not accurate?

By the way ..............
If you ever log EGT's, you will notice that the temp rises a bit after you get out of the throttle, even with an exposed tip, small diameter / fast acting K-Couple.

Same thing with the MAT with alky.
"If" you had a slow car (like mine :tongue: ), AND ran a full 1/4 mile, I bet temps would read less than what you are currently reading.
Don't be fooled by "MAT numbers you read on the log" on such a short blast.
You are running the exact numbers you "should" run with the combo.

 

[Boost231]

Good point.
I would justr run water, and run the pump real low.
That way you are no displacing fuel, and get the cooling.

Is that 11.0 on race gas?

yes 11.0 on race gas. im just in the begining stages of tunning. next tunning will be thanks giving weekend.

 

[Boost231]

Good point.
I would justr run water, and run the pump real low.
That way you are no displacing fuel, and get the cooling.

Is that 11.0 on race gas?

do we have any data on the water injection and how it effects cooling? i know alky cools good real good but it kinda sucks it makes you pull alot of fueling to get your a/f back in check. i went from 11.0 with the alky on 3 to 8.0 with the alky on 6. it would be nice to get cooling effect without having to pull alot of fuel if any at all

 

[Jerryl]

do we have any data on the water injection and how it effects cooling? i know alky cools good real good but it kinda sucks it makes you pull alot of fueling to get your a/f back in check. i went from 11.0 with the alky on 3 to 8.0 with the alky on 6. it would be nice to get cooling effect without having to pull alot of fuel if any at all

Well, I "think" you can get the fuel correction done with your aftermarket system.
Say with you replace 25% with alky, AND, you have the closed loop fuel correction set so it will add up to 25%, than, if the alky completely fails, you should be able to get the fuel you need. (I belief that is your concern )

Now, the alky system is pretty stout, and should be monitored, just like every other system.
IMHO, if you get the tune right, show up a tthe track, make a shake down pass, consistently monitor KR, there is onlky a small chance something will go wrong.

I have never "looked at" or "played with" an aftermarket ECM, and, only post what I read.
I am sure Nick can give waaaaay more advice than I ever will.

 

[Boost231]

Well, I "think" you can get the fuel correction done with your aftermarket system.
Say with you replace 25% with alky, AND, you have the closed loop fuel correction set so it will add up to 25%, than, if the alky completely fails, you should be able to get the fuel you need. (I belief that is your concern )

Now, the alky system is pretty stout, and should be monitored, just like every other system.
IMHO, if you get the tune right, show up a tthe track, make a shake down pass, consistently monitor KR, there is onlky a small chance something will go wrong.

I have never "looked at" or "played with" an aftermarket ECM, and, only post what I read.
I am sure Nick can give waaaaay more advice than I ever will.

that is what im saying. i just need to make sure i dont go over 25% so if it does fail it wont lean way out. problem is with the data logging being done and showing the cooling effect it has i might be maxed at 25% even know i could get more cooling by going to 35% if that makes since. i dont want to go past 25 just for the incase it fails cushion. its all good we will see. im just in the beging stages of addding alky. intake temps are coming down which is promissing. im almost running 11.99 on 17psi of boost with low timing and a conservitive AFR. i would be there if i didnt short shift the car.

 

[esinger]

I went through all my logs, even the ones from a year ago (When I first bought the powerlogger). My second to third gear shift was never been as strong as the first to second shift, so it not something that's getting worse, just the current characteristic of the tranny. I could play a little with the TV cable to see if I can some more aggressive shifts (which I know I can, they just can be too violent for regular street driving).

I agree that my current combo is at it's limit. There really no reason to run it at the strip anymore until I have changed something. Pat is telling me to leave it alone, it's a great running car as it is and all I'm going to do is break stuff trying to go faster. It's reliable as it is right now and can run very low 8s to high 7s in the eighth all day long. Although I do agree with him, I stay want to take it one more notch before I call it done. It'll probably involve a new turbo and injectors.

Back to the water/meth discussion, the water did show a very nice down in temps. I personally like it because it allowed a tad more boost and timing than straight meth and it cooled the intake better. With my combo I don't think I'm into trying a straight water injection, I just don't think I have enough injector left to run it. 100% meth my injector duty cycle was in the mid 60s, 70% meth put my duty cycle in the mid 70s.

 

[turbo6x2]

70% duty cycle isn't really that bad, I've actually had mine maxed out before running 11's before we realized it. What injector size are you running? What boost are you running on your turbo? Like I've always said my car likes fuel and I see you are running 10.7 - 1 that's pretty rich. I was only running 11.0 - 1 on the 10.71 pass but I run a double pumper, you don't see any fuel being pulled running this high? I had zero correction on that pass with that a/f target and egt were in the low 1700 at the top end. I'm just asking because you said it was upper 60's which would make me think you could run a little leaner but then your car could be different then mine. On a warmer day I run right around 11.4 to 1. and it makes power.

 

[esinger]

What injector size are you running? What boost are you running on your turbo?

Hi Jamie, I have 009 injectors and the boost is around 23 lbs. I haven't played around with leaning it out, but next time I go to the track I can try that just to see what happens.

Getting the right A/F ratio, alky setting and water to meth ratio really gets the head hurting. On top of that are all the SD Chip settings and I'm thinking it's about time to check into the loony bin.

I've been talking to people in the last month and the Fast XFI sounds like a really nice setup, however if my brains hurting with my current stuff, I'd really be bad off with all you can do with the Fast XFI.

 

[kh440]

Strictly opinion and unscientific wild-ased guess: Possible those 009's are what's holding you back. I know a lot of people swear by them, but from personal experiences (mine and Sharif's): we always swore AT them. 50's or even 60's may be worth considering. I would definitely do an injector upgrade before looking at turbos.