Nothing wrong with the good old g body shuffle
Garrett G30-770 Turbo vs TA49, 1990s vs 2020s, GN Mustang DYNO Results Inside!!
- Thread starter GNVYUS 1
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GNVYUS 1
Well-Known Member
Hey Jay, I understand your initial post and might be right, I'm no mustang dyno expert.
But I think you might not have read the full context, not your fault as some of its in an older thread. I'm also not gonna take your comment of "This proves nothing" offensive, I'll hopefully show a couple things to prove that's not to true like...
TA49 58mm maxed boost wise = 416mwhp/456mwtq
G30-770 58mm not maxed boost wise but close =
481mwhp/697mwtq
Which 58mm flows more and makes a ton more torque on our platform?
Which GN is quicker and faster, TA49 or G30?
That's pretty apples to apples, same car 600 miles difference.
Keep in mind, your comment doesn't inspire members who spend f loads of money to post modern data for us all to see what's out there. If members don't post data on the boards, well be running 3 bolt turbos in 2040 and getting the shit kicked out of us by the Honda Accord electric car. I love the TA49 and what all those turbo companies did for us for decades offering this and other turbos in our housing too, this wasn't a slam post on that.
Also, I think I'm the first guy to show any data on this turbo and was planning this year's ago. I heard Bison is doing this so he'll probably be the guy that either confirms or destroys my info, you all can use his data as the GN platform basis.
Older Thread Info....
I couldn't raise the boost more on the TA49, I mentioned this in another thread but understand if that wasn't made clear here.
It wouldn't go higher than 19psi because of my combo, we tried and I already had the wastegate rod way in from it being a non intercooler car in the past. My signature should explain why though, ported Ta heads and ported TA intake, no backpressure in the inlet or exhaust really so how much psi can the little TA49 make on that?.......
19psi and falling fast to 16psi is the answer, power numbers reflect that, roughly 520hp at the crank with 18 degrees seems pretty close to the max the wheel is designated for (545hp). I used to see 29psi on the TA49 on the ported irons and ported stock intake etc but the new combo is a big build for a specific goal. TA49 couldn't supply enough air, but that's why I switched too and showed the graph, 58mm 1990s vs 58mm 2020s.
No hate on the TA49, just that the new version is capable of this result, back to back. I kept so many many things the same so that the back to back would be comparable in many ways. It's info, free and might help another member venture this way but if it's not enough well, my info is still here first.
I can post a graph overlay of the 19psi G30-770 but you can already guess the low end torque is way way more and comes in sooner. I'd need to do some work to get it but we have it in the pulls, massive torque gain still.
My tuner didn't want to run the timing to 18 degrees on the G30-770 but that's where the TA49 had the advantage, it still got hammered, lowering the TA49 timing to 15.5 should've produced less so advantage TA49.
TA49 = 18 degrees
G30-770 = 15.5 degrees
Here's one way to look at apples to apples...
What exhaust housing do 99% of all TA49 owners have? 3 bolt .63.
This dyno pull proves the new exhaust housings are way better too, that's another reason why I switched, then posted the proof. The 3 bolt .85 housing would have done worse down low, then got even more embarrassed so the upgrade has this advantage for us aside from the wheels.
We all talk about the .63 and it's spool, this should show another big benefit to us, faster spool, more low end torque, no wastegate rod.
I believe this is what's real here.....
This result is what would happen if any GN went from a maxed out TA49 to the modern G30-770 58mm turbo. You gain an F low of torque and spool better, yet still a street 58mm turbo on our platform. New TA49
But I think you might not have read the full context, not your fault as some of its in an older thread. I'm also not gonna take your comment of "This proves nothing" offensive, I'll hopefully show a couple things to prove that's not to true like...
TA49 58mm maxed boost wise = 416mwhp/456mwtq
G30-770 58mm not maxed boost wise but close =
481mwhp/697mwtq
Which 58mm flows more and makes a ton more torque on our platform?
Which GN is quicker and faster, TA49 or G30?
That's pretty apples to apples, same car 600 miles difference.
Keep in mind, your comment doesn't inspire members who spend f loads of money to post modern data for us all to see what's out there. If members don't post data on the boards, well be running 3 bolt turbos in 2040 and getting the shit kicked out of us by the Honda Accord electric car. I love the TA49 and what all those turbo companies did for us for decades offering this and other turbos in our housing too, this wasn't a slam post on that.
Also, I think I'm the first guy to show any data on this turbo and was planning this year's ago. I heard Bison is doing this so he'll probably be the guy that either confirms or destroys my info, you all can use his data as the GN platform basis.
Older Thread Info....
I couldn't raise the boost more on the TA49, I mentioned this in another thread but understand if that wasn't made clear here.
It wouldn't go higher than 19psi because of my combo, we tried and I already had the wastegate rod way in from it being a non intercooler car in the past. My signature should explain why though, ported Ta heads and ported TA intake, no backpressure in the inlet or exhaust really so how much psi can the little TA49 make on that?.......
19psi and falling fast to 16psi is the answer, power numbers reflect that, roughly 520hp at the crank with 18 degrees seems pretty close to the max the wheel is designated for (545hp). I used to see 29psi on the TA49 on the ported irons and ported stock intake etc but the new combo is a big build for a specific goal. TA49 couldn't supply enough air, but that's why I switched too and showed the graph, 58mm 1990s vs 58mm 2020s.
No hate on the TA49, just that the new version is capable of this result, back to back. I kept so many many things the same so that the back to back would be comparable in many ways. It's info, free and might help another member venture this way but if it's not enough well, my info is still here first.
I can post a graph overlay of the 19psi G30-770 but you can already guess the low end torque is way way more and comes in sooner. I'd need to do some work to get it but we have it in the pulls, massive torque gain still.
My tuner didn't want to run the timing to 18 degrees on the G30-770 but that's where the TA49 had the advantage, it still got hammered, lowering the TA49 timing to 15.5 should've produced less so advantage TA49.
TA49 = 18 degrees
G30-770 = 15.5 degrees
Here's one way to look at apples to apples...
What exhaust housing do 99% of all TA49 owners have? 3 bolt .63.
This dyno pull proves the new exhaust housings are way better too, that's another reason why I switched, then posted the proof. The 3 bolt .85 housing would have done worse down low, then got even more embarrassed so the upgrade has this advantage for us aside from the wheels.
We all talk about the .63 and it's spool, this should show another big benefit to us, faster spool, more low end torque, no wastegate rod.
I believe this is what's real here.....
This result is what would happen if any GN went from a maxed out TA49 to the modern G30-770 58mm turbo. You gain an F low of torque and spool better, yet still a street 58mm turbo on our platform. New TA49
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I still dont think you did a fair comparison but I dont really feel like debating it. When you start changing a bunch of stuff then your numbers get skewed.
You didn't just change a turbo and pick up X amount of horsepower. You changed timing, boost, probably changed the fuel curve and changed the turbo. Thats a lot of stuff to claim horsepower gains from a single change. If you were really maxed out at 19 PSI with the TA49 then you had about 5 or 6 degrees of timing you could have added back in..... at least.
If you really believe that you had maxed out the TA49 then I guess it is what it is. I kind of find that hard to believe but I wasn't there so Ill take your word for it.
You didn't just change a turbo and pick up X amount of horsepower. You changed timing, boost, probably changed the fuel curve and changed the turbo. Thats a lot of stuff to claim horsepower gains from a single change. If you were really maxed out at 19 PSI with the TA49 then you had about 5 or 6 degrees of timing you could have added back in..... at least.
If you really believe that you had maxed out the TA49 then I guess it is what it is. I kind of find that hard to believe but I wasn't there so Ill take your word for it.
GNVYUS 1
Well-Known Member
GN1 heads and Champion intake, my bad.
I hear you on debating it, but while we're here...
How much more you think you'll get from the TA49 at 416mwhp?
Roughly 461dwhp dyno Jet at 11%.
Fuel IDC alone suggested 520hp crank and even if there's 4-6 degrees left in it (not gonna risk that shit) the G30 had only 15.5 degrees, but let's say 5 degrees more so now maybe 545hp like they claim the TA49 max is?
Add 25hp and 30tq so...
So 545hp/595tq vs 600hp/825tq, which 58mm is the winner?
Is your posts that the TA49 at even 550hp is a contender here?
It's a contender in categories like money, ease of use etc, but power, not even close.
Where you getting 800tq around 3600rpm from on a 3 bolt .63 TA49, that's not even normal for 64mm Gen 2 on our platform at that rpm I bet.
Regardless, this wasn't anything other than info, I've been away for a while and am pumped about being back and it being done. Here's a lot of money and time on my end for you all to just check out, interpret your own way, all good, I'm another GN in the National Borg trying to help the mothership. LOL
I hear you on debating it, but while we're here...
How much more you think you'll get from the TA49 at 416mwhp?
Roughly 461dwhp dyno Jet at 11%.
Fuel IDC alone suggested 520hp crank and even if there's 4-6 degrees left in it (not gonna risk that shit) the G30 had only 15.5 degrees, but let's say 5 degrees more so now maybe 545hp like they claim the TA49 max is?
Add 25hp and 30tq so...
So 545hp/595tq vs 600hp/825tq, which 58mm is the winner?
Is your posts that the TA49 at even 550hp is a contender here?
It's a contender in categories like money, ease of use etc, but power, not even close.
Where you getting 800tq around 3600rpm from on a 3 bolt .63 TA49, that's not even normal for 64mm Gen 2 on our platform at that rpm I bet.
Regardless, this wasn't anything other than info, I've been away for a while and am pumped about being back and it being done. Here's a lot of money and time on my end for you all to just check out, interpret your own way, all good, I'm another GN in the National Borg trying to help the mothership. LOL
A 64mm on the right combo will do alot more than 800ftlbs and make 200 more hp as you approach peak power.
My personal experience is
I've done more than that also on a .63 ex housing.
I do believe your 49 had more left but not enough to even touch the garret 58mm.
It's not because of the exhaust housing either.
Ive made 1000hp on 3 bolt .85 exhaust housings.
I have 4 bolt on my other car as well.
Over 800hp on 3 bolt .63.
The wheel designs and covers are the reason why the the turbo works really well and you have chosen well to get the most power out of a very small turbo.
I've run 10.6s on the 49 with a killer 60ft and 330 and 660ft.wastegate was sealed shut and made all the boost it could and I also added quite a bit of timing.it was whipped for sure.
That et was easily duplicated with a bigger turbo on the same car.
No doubt if I had that old combo and had your 58mm I would be looking to go alot faster and would not need the whip.
Its common now for the new turbos to make gains over their older billet designs and being 2mm smaller.
The 49 cannot utilize a larger .85 exhousing let alot a 4 bolt.
Your turbo is making the power.
I appreciate the thread personally and see that 58mm as big jump in smaller wheel power if a guy doesnt want to go a little bigger.
The g30 would still walk away from it,How about testing the new turbo on the TA49's turf. A stock Buick built motor with a D5.
Even in a 3 bolt
It actual doesn't.
The ex housing is not the restriction on any 58mm turbo.
Your dyno numbers and much higher have been made on 3 bolts .63 or bigger.
With backpressure 1.5 or sometimes even higher.
I have overspeed compressors and broken them on a few turbos
Remember your turbo has a max overspeed rating in the 77lb/minute range.
.63 3bolts do flow more than that.
I've done 87lb/minute.
Also .63 housing can do 900+ftlbs on the right dyno
SLIC V6
Active Member
I love to see the data! It's always nice to be able to compare numbers, especially if you can do a direct apples to apples comparison.
The problem with data and numbers is that the conditions and dyno variable settings are incredibly important in the final results.
Many people do not like or trust Dyno numbers because of this variable. They are very rarely posted up with the Dyno results.
There are some Dyno operators out there that can skew outcomes to match their wishes. I'm not saying that happened in this instance, but it is done by some out there in this business.
I still love to see the numbers and graphs. Especially when it is on something that is relatively new to the market.
These Garrett Turbos do seem to perform very well for their relatively smaller sizes. I can't wait to see some before/after quarter miles times come in from these!
Not trying to ruffle any feathers, just explaining some of the skepticism that can be out there!
ENJOY!!!
- Jerry
The problem with data and numbers is that the conditions and dyno variable settings are incredibly important in the final results.
Many people do not like or trust Dyno numbers because of this variable. They are very rarely posted up with the Dyno results.
There are some Dyno operators out there that can skew outcomes to match their wishes. I'm not saying that happened in this instance, but it is done by some out there in this business.
I still love to see the numbers and graphs. Especially when it is on something that is relatively new to the market.
These Garrett Turbos do seem to perform very well for their relatively smaller sizes. I can't wait to see some before/after quarter miles times come in from these!
Not trying to ruffle any feathers, just explaining some of the skepticism that can be out there!
ENJOY!!!
- Jerry
GNVYUS 1
Well-Known Member
I noticed this thread might've gone a bit sideways so I'll reiterate, just showing what a big $ stock block build looks like on a dyno with new tech. No ball busting, friendly debate and here's what a GN can do since 99.999% of these turbos are not on our cars.
BTW, tuner made the AFR the same, apples to apples, 11.1 etc so you have to adjust the VE, not safe to leave it alone.
If these weren't so expensive and a PIA to get on or cars you'd see a big shift this way over the next 5 years. The Mustang dyno graph is crazier than the Supra, we max out the turbo in the low-mid torque range. These maximize our engines advantage, low-mid torque.
Spool, my 800tq and 64/66 comment was about "when" it will produce that torque, 3500rpm on the G30-770 is definitely earlier in the band but agree the 64mm is stronger. But I'll say on the street flashing to 3600rpm and hitting 800tq+ is wild, instant pull and it finally spins the tires on hammer downs while driving (didn't do this after all new rear suspension and TA49 on the car).
Spool, you know better than anyone what the TA49 can do, you'd have gone low 10 with this turbo no doubt.
Spool you are correct, a 3 bolt can flow those numbers but the V band will do it better and spool sooner, my main point. Import world demands proof so they make big shops show T4 vs V band etc and the V band only loses to the twin scroll in spool, that's it. (Garrett makes a twin scroll V band but not relevant to us).
Our 3 bolt has been surpassed hence my thread and comment to show what our platform can do with the modern tech. Agree the turbo is the majority of the gain but the housing matters and V band spools/flows better.
Great link to see what Garrett shows the V band vs T4 can flow (check out .82 vs .83). Spool on V band is better (other online tests), flows a tad more.
Not a bash the old tech thread, just here's what the new Turbo tech can do to a really stout GN size vs size.
Just noticed this thread ranks in search results for this turbo, G30-770, LOL. 99% are gonna wonder what a 3 bolt is and the other 33% what a GN is.
800tq > 700hp young import street heroes, Grandpa National got 2 new hips and ready to play ball.
BTW, tuner made the AFR the same, apples to apples, 11.1 etc so you have to adjust the VE, not safe to leave it alone.
If these weren't so expensive and a PIA to get on or cars you'd see a big shift this way over the next 5 years. The Mustang dyno graph is crazier than the Supra, we max out the turbo in the low-mid torque range. These maximize our engines advantage, low-mid torque.
Spool, my 800tq and 64/66 comment was about "when" it will produce that torque, 3500rpm on the G30-770 is definitely earlier in the band but agree the 64mm is stronger. But I'll say on the street flashing to 3600rpm and hitting 800tq+ is wild, instant pull and it finally spins the tires on hammer downs while driving (didn't do this after all new rear suspension and TA49 on the car).
Spool, you know better than anyone what the TA49 can do, you'd have gone low 10 with this turbo no doubt.
Spool you are correct, a 3 bolt can flow those numbers but the V band will do it better and spool sooner, my main point. Import world demands proof so they make big shops show T4 vs V band etc and the V band only loses to the twin scroll in spool, that's it. (Garrett makes a twin scroll V band but not relevant to us).
Our 3 bolt has been surpassed hence my thread and comment to show what our platform can do with the modern tech. Agree the turbo is the majority of the gain but the housing matters and V band spools/flows better.
Great link to see what Garrett shows the V band vs T4 can flow (check out .82 vs .83). Spool on V band is better (other online tests), flows a tad more.
Not a bash the old tech thread, just here's what the new Turbo tech can do to a really stout GN size vs size.
Just noticed this thread ranks in search results for this turbo, G30-770, LOL. 99% are gonna wonder what a 3 bolt is and the other 33% what a GN is.
800tq > 700hp young import street heroes, Grandpa National got 2 new hips and ready to play ball.
TType85
Well-Known Member
I think it's good to see someone going outside the box. That car is probably a blast to drive on the street.
Staying 3-bolt you can make just as much HP but when you leave that requirement behind there is a lot of choices out there that will make great power and possibly have better mid range and transient response as you have shown. I was going to go to switch to v-band headers and a G35-1050 but I just came across a smoking deal on a BW 9174 EFR with a .96 undivided T4 housing for it so I will give that a try first. It should spool faster than my current generic JB 6766.
There is a company that makes a undivided .82 T4 housings for the G30 series and is supposed to have one coming out for the G35 next year so that may make it easier to get in to the G series for those who already have 4-bolt headers.
Staying 3-bolt you can make just as much HP but when you leave that requirement behind there is a lot of choices out there that will make great power and possibly have better mid range and transient response as you have shown. I was going to go to switch to v-band headers and a G35-1050 but I just came across a smoking deal on a BW 9174 EFR with a .96 undivided T4 housing for it so I will give that a try first. It should spool faster than my current generic JB 6766.
There is a company that makes a undivided .82 T4 housings for the G30 series and is supposed to have one coming out for the G35 next year so that may make it easier to get in to the G series for those who already have 4-bolt headers.
Howling Mad
Active Member
Any other info on your combo?
GNVYUS 1
Well-Known Member
The dyno graph is of BOTH turbos to see the massive difference between the two, the lower numbers that come all in later are the TA49, the big mountain is the new G30-770 with the .83 v band.
If you watch the Supra video, just speed up until you see them talking in front of the dyno graph screen, you'll see at the end of their G30-770 exhaust housing swaps something similar, the tiny .63 housing kills spool and power in bigger engines. The 1.01 housing spooled faster and made insanely more power than the .61 housing, the .61 was choking the turbo so they couldn't get all the boost out of it. The new Turbo tech mixed with the bigger housing is the result you're seeing in my graph.
KennyGN1, v band or T4 housing?
G35-1050 is a 109 killer, if you push that turbo you'll be looking at a 7 cylinder block. Hahaha
If you watch the Supra video, just speed up until you see them talking in front of the dyno graph screen, you'll see at the end of their G30-770 exhaust housing swaps something similar, the tiny .63 housing kills spool and power in bigger engines. The 1.01 housing spooled faster and made insanely more power than the .61 housing, the .61 was choking the turbo so they couldn't get all the boost out of it. The new Turbo tech mixed with the bigger housing is the result you're seeing in my graph.
KennyGN1, v band or T4 housing?
G35-1050 is a 109 killer, if you push that turbo you'll be looking at a 7 cylinder block. Hahaha
Attachments
Why does your car make so much torque at 3300 rpm and then go down as rpm increases? You should be seeing a flat curve once you hit peak torque and beyond. Both turbos and graphs do that which is a little weird.
What kind of fuel are you using here? E85 or pump gas and alky? If you are running 120 pph injectors on E85 and hitting 86% IDC you are on the edge with those which makes no damn sense running an alky kit along with it. It seems your fuel map is super rich and once the turbo hits its making the torque with that cam. I am not knocking the combo at all, i like outside thinking as well.
I would be looking at AF ratios closely and I bet you find more power across the rpm range. We would all love to see the data logs on this. RPM vs Boost vs AF ratios.
There is nothing wrong with an .85 V band housing on a good size turbo. The turbo will respond just fine to it and you can make more power with it.
There is a big difference between a Buick 3.8 and a 2JZ motor. The 2JZ has 2500 rpm more to make the power and drive the turbo in the process. We are all in and done by 6000 rpm if we are lucky.
Keep the info coming please.
What kind of fuel are you using here? E85 or pump gas and alky? If you are running 120 pph injectors on E85 and hitting 86% IDC you are on the edge with those which makes no damn sense running an alky kit along with it. It seems your fuel map is super rich and once the turbo hits its making the torque with that cam. I am not knocking the combo at all, i like outside thinking as well.
I would be looking at AF ratios closely and I bet you find more power across the rpm range. We would all love to see the data logs on this. RPM vs Boost vs AF ratios.
There is nothing wrong with an .85 V band housing on a good size turbo. The turbo will respond just fine to it and you can make more power with it.
There is a big difference between a Buick 3.8 and a 2JZ motor. The 2JZ has 2500 rpm more to make the power and drive the turbo in the process. We are all in and done by 6000 rpm if we are lucky.
Keep the info coming please.
GNVYUS 1
Well-Known Member
Pulls were on the same dyno, only turbo changed and VE tube tweaks to not lean out due to more power. I just posted to show what is going on these days in turbo + housing etc evolution and on our platform.
You'll need to move graph 300rpm to the right to line up with the computer log.
E85
ECUGN
Fueling is looking for and correcting for 11.2 AFR (which was for both turbos)
Ported Champion heads and ported Champion Intake manifold, gobbles up the turbo along with a liquid IC having 1psi of total backpressure so there's an efficient path to just consume the little 58/55 turbo asap.
Combo was setup to be a street killer, it's a Hellcat Demon but at 3280lbs. It feels like it so I'm happy it worked out this way.
But HPT with the wastegate on the exhaust housing will save plenty of $ and custom fabrication so I'm sure I'm gonna be in little company going this route due to what's coming soon. I wouldn't recommend my Garrett route after seeing that turbo for our crowd.
You'll need to move graph 300rpm to the right to line up with the computer log.
E85
ECUGN
Fueling is looking for and correcting for 11.2 AFR (which was for both turbos)
Ported Champion heads and ported Champion Intake manifold, gobbles up the turbo along with a liquid IC having 1psi of total backpressure so there's an efficient path to just consume the little 58/55 turbo asap.
Combo was setup to be a street killer, it's a Hellcat Demon but at 3280lbs. It feels like it so I'm happy it worked out this way.
But HPT with the wastegate on the exhaust housing will save plenty of $ and custom fabrication so I'm sure I'm gonna be in little company going this route due to what's coming soon. I wouldn't recommend my Garrett route after seeing that turbo for our crowd.
TType85
Well-Known Member
Big upside to the HPT is it bolts on to stock headers; you will still need to modify your return line for the narrower bolt pattern on the center section the same you would need to do on the G30/G35 and Borg EFR turbos.
Easy modification; slot the holes and it works.
Bison has shown the G35 to make AWESOME power for it's size but it requires going to a v-band setup and extra fab work for the downpipe as it's a bit different than the PTE style.
If you go 4-bolt none of these newer turbos will allow the use of a stock style return line due to the T4 flange being in the way. With the EFR in 4 bolt it might have been fine with a little tweaking but I feel the turbo I picked up was too big for what I want (EFR9174). With the G30 and a T4 housing I could not fit my thumb between the compressor housing and T4 flange.
Borg Warner EFR-9174 -- Close but can be tweaked a bit
G30-900 -- Peekaboo!
HPT-6466 with T4 -- Way too tight and can't even get the 4th nut on.
Bobs rare 6
Member
Whats your set up? I have an G35-1050 on a Bison built Aluminum headed stroker. Getting ready to get this thing fired up in a month or two! Do you have any track times? You didnt by chance have Bison do your set up, did you? There was a Kenny that he did a dyno on one and its almost identical to my build.
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