A New Drag Anti Lag System

[Alky V6]

A major advancement in anti lag technology.
The new method focuses on the use of nitrous with methanol. A combination that was thought to be useless compared to a nitrous/gasoline mix. I've found a tune that makes use of the nitrous/methanol mix in the exhaust system to provide the smoothest drag anti lag system ever.

YouTube - Discovery of the Nitrous / Methanol Drag Turbo Anti Lag System

 

[1chance]

Not sure of how it all work's, but would love to learn!

 

[mr go fast]

Will the mixture/recipe work for street apps or only race apps? Better yet will it even be worth it to combos less than 500hp?

 

[Alky V6]

The complete trials and tribulations leading up to the discovery of this system are in this thread.
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/alcohol-nitrous-propane-tech/226149-advancement-fuel-delivery.html

I know it's a long one. If you want to skip to a point where there were clues noted that led up to the discovery, start at around page 20-22 or so. If you thoroughly read through the thread, all the clues are there that will explain how the system works. It does get rather involved, and demands a basic understanding on fuel and nitrous chemistry, but I think I've tried hard in the thread to explain how it all works. If there are any further questions, please post them in the above thread. I'd like to keep all the documentation on this exciting new discovery in one place.

 

[Alky V6]

Will the mixture/recipe work for street apps or only race apps? Better yet will it even be worth it to combos less than 500hp?

The new system is basically meant to be used on turbocharged engines burning methanol, trying to spool an oversized turbo, and using nitrous with methanol to spool the large turbo.
It's a very smooth als that does not involve the old pop and banging that's so common lately. Much easier on the engine, exhaust system and turbo. Since it is methanol fuel, there is much less thermal loading involved also.
A perfect anti lag system.

It would be difficult to adapt this type of system to a gasoline application. May not be impossible though.

 

[Quint]

The new system is basically meant to be used on turbocharged engines burning methanol, trying to spool an oversized turbo, and using nitrous with methanol to spool the large turbo.
It's a very smooth als that does not involve the old pop and banging that's so common lately. Much easier on the engine, exhaust system and turbo. Since it is methanol fuel, there is much less thermal loading involved also.
A perfect anti lag system.



It would be difficult to adapt this type of system to a gasoline application. May not be impossible though.

Very interesting. Now we spool with a 100shot only on transbreak, then it releases. From 0 to about 5600 rpms transbrk without coming in hot on the foot break or having some really nice Aerospace breaks to hold it better, it takes about 1.8-2.2 sec depnding on how much boost we leave at. If I leave at where this car wants to which is 12-14#'s(boy it would be nice to actually hook, but slicks will be fixing this soon), it takes just over 2 sec. Yes, I would love to get it done in .7-.5 sec and we already know with a better break set up, we can really do it. We should be able to hold 7#'s or more on a good setup, so when I hit transbreak, I almost there. I see it done all the time with the big guns. Whats your thoughts

 

[Alky V6]

Very interesting. Now we spool with a 100shot only on transbreak, then it releases. From 0 to about 5600 rpms transbrk without coming in hot on the foot break or having some really nice Aerospace breaks to hold it better, it takes about 1.8-2.2 sec depnding on how much boost we leave at. If I leave at where this car wants to which is 12-14#'s(boy it would be nice to actually hook, but slicks will be fixing this soon), it takes just over 2 sec. Yes, I would love to get it done in .7-.5 sec and we already know with a better break set up, we can really do it. We should be able to hold 7#'s or more on a good setup, so when I hit transbreak, I almost there. I see it done all the time with the big guns. Whats your thoughts

I'll try to give you an idea of how this works.
Imagine if you increased your nitrous shot to 300. But only 50 to 75 hp worth of that shot would actually create work in the cylinder. The rest would be ignited in the exhaust and would work directly to help spool the turbo. Just like a gasoline style als, but without having to drop cylinders and without the pop and bang of erratic combustion. Just smooth stable combustion in the exhaust system.
You don't have to drop cylinders because nitrous and methanol carry their own oxygen.
So you have a 300 shot that doesn't put a gat awful load on the engine at the line, but is providing a substantial amount of energy to directly spool the turbo.
How quickly a system like this would get you to your target launch boost level would depend on a lot of factors such as engine to turbo size and TC stall. I'm sure you get the idea.

 

[Alky V6]

Keep in mind that in the video I'm bringing the engine up to 2420 rpm on the transbrake until the nitrous turns on. 2420 rpm is the stall of my TC off nitrous and at 0 boost. If you're using a much looser TC, I'm sure the results would be much different. What I mean is, an even quicker rise in boost.

 

[Quint]

Gotcha. The converter we use through Dusty is pretty much as lose as you go, almost. Thanks for the info

 

[Alky V6]

Gotcha. The converter we use through Dusty is pretty much as lose as you go, almost. Thanks for the info

Please don't use this type of system unless you fully understand how it works. I don't want anyone blowing their stuff up. If you have questions, please ask.
I'm presently authoring a thread in the advanced tech section at turboforums that is going to thoroughly explain how the system works and how to tune for it. I'm doing it over there because I figured there would be much more interest in a system like this over there.

 

[TURBOKID]

sounds like to much to deal with if you are racing someone on the tree. sure would suck to have someone burn you down and your over there spraying on the brake

 

[Alky V6]

sounds like to much to deal with if you are racing someone on the tree. sure would suck to have someone burn you down and your over there spraying on the brake

With a pro tree, I'm not sure how that would work. I'm not up to that point in my testing. Being on the nitrous with methanol is a lot different than being on the nitrous with gasoline, though.

With a sportsman (three amber) tree, you would not be on the nitrous while staged on the transbrake until you saw the first amber light.
A launch would go something like this;

Bring the rpm up to say 2100 and stage the car. You could even idle into staging if you wanted. I just feel I need to be up on the rpm a little.

Once staged, set the transbrake and go WOT. My TC stall is such that it acts as my aux rev limiter when off the nitrous. If you have a looser TC or are looking for consistency, I suppose you could use a 2 step rev limiter.

In my case, I would now be sitting at the line, staged at WOT, with the rpm at about 2400-2700 depending on weather and engine/tranny temps, etc. No nitrous is being used at this point. I don't know how much more milder you can be, sitting at the line, waiting for the first amber to come down.

At the first sign of the first amber, the transbrake button is released and nitrous starts to flow. Timers are being used. A set amount of time later and the transbrake is released.

This would seem to me to be even easier on the car than most of the launch styles that I see fellas doing without nitrous.

 

[baadgn]

With a pro tree, I'm not sure how that would work. I'm not up to that point in my testing. Being on the nitrous with methanol is a lot different than being on the nitrous with gasoline, though.

With a sportsman (three amber) tree, you would not be on the nitrous while staged on the transbrake until you saw the first amber light.
A launch would go something like this;

Bring the rpm up to say 2100 and stage the car. You could even idle into staging if you wanted. I just feel I need to be up on the rpm a little.

Once staged, set the transbrake and go WOT. My TC stall is such that it acts as my aux rev limiter when off the nitrous. If you have a looser TC or are looking for consistency, I suppose you could use a 2 step rev limiter.

In my case, I would now be sitting at the line, staged at WOT, with the rpm at about 2400-2700 depending on weather and engine/tranny temps, etc. No nitrous is being used at this point. I don't know how much more milder you can be, sitting at the line, waiting for the first amber to come down.

At the first sign of the first amber, the transbrake button is released and nitrous starts to flow. Timers are being used. A set amount of time later and the transbrake is released.

This would seem to me to be even easier on the car than most of the launch styles that I see fellas doing without nitrous.

Don,

What happens if your racing pro tree and you did not get a chance to stage first ?

 

[Alky V6]

Don,

What happens if your racing pro tree and you did not get a chance to stage first ?

That procedure still needs to be worked out. :tongue: Or, I'll just stay away from pro light racing. :biggrin:

I guess someone could kick it on before staging, but holy cow. I don't know if I could do that to my engine. I'm a little wimpy still in that department. I've seen people do some pretty scary staging routines, though. It would certainly be easier on the engine than someone doing the pop and bang stuff while staging. Kicking it on with a higher stall TC would be easier on the engine. Nitrous on with the engine at a steady low rpm load is not good.

 

[Alky V6]

I thought about it more, and this is what I came up with.

You could momentarily hit the nitrous system and have it shut down at a certain boost level. Stage the car, and on release of the transbrake button, the system comes on again to get the boost up quicker. If that is really needed.
This would work much better on a car with a looser TC than what I am using.

 

[baadgn]

I thought about it more, and this is what I came up with.

You could momentarily hit the nitrous system and have it shut down at a certain boost level. Stage the car, and on release of the transbrake button, the system comes on again to get the boost up quicker. If that is really needed.
This would work much better on a car with a looser TC than what I am using.

That may work.. im not sure if the brakes would hold the car enough, when you hit the nitrous at the prestage light. That would push the car pretty hard.

 

[Otto J]

It would be easier to stroke that damn motor,use a PTE4788 BB turbo and matching PTC convertor,you could then stop messing with all this stuff and have the abilty at 3400#s to run in the high 7s and race a pro tree no problem.
I realize you like to think out of the box but if you would just dump that 91.5 turbo and go with a BB 4788 you wouldnt have half the trouble you have getting that motor up on the pipe and laying down some serious times.
Just my opinion.
Don't take this as I don't respect what you do or what you are trying.
Just figuring the end result is you want to race you car,run fast and have a good time rather than spending 2 years dialing it in and making it raceable.

 

[Alky V6]

It would be easier to stroke that damn motor,use a PTE4788 BB turbo and matching PTC convertor,you could then stop messing with all this stuff and have the abilty at 3400#s to run in the high 7s and race a pro tree no problem.
I realize you like to think out of the box but if you would just dump that 91.5 turbo and go with a BB 4788 you wouldnt have half the trouble you have getting that motor up on the pipe and laying down some serious times.
Just my opinion.
Don't take this as I don't respect what you do or what you are trying.
Just figuring the end result is you want to race you car,run fast and have a good time rather than spending 2 years dialing it in and making it raceable.

Actually, I enjoy the challenge of making an unlikely combination work where everyone else thinks it's impossible, over simply just taking a car to the track and racing it. If all I wanted to do was go fast the easy way, I'd have built me a TT BBC. Not everyone enjoys taking the easy road.

Plus, what makes you think I want to do 7s?

 

[Otto J]

Plus, what makes you think I want to do 7s?

The size of the turbo a person runs USUALLY depicts how fast he wants to go,and anyone running a 91+mm turbo i figure is shooting for a 7 sec time when know that the 88mms that have been available had proven low 8s at the time in cars 3-4000#s heavier

 

[Alky V6]

The size of the turbo a person runs USUALLY depicts how fast he wants to go,and anyone running a 91+mm turbo i figure is shooting for a 7 sec time when know that the 88mms that have been available had proven low 8s at the time in cars 3-4000#s heavier

Yes, you're right. Usually, a person would pick a turbo that is small enough to spool as quickly as possible, but still be large enough so that the compressor is operated in an acceptable efficiency zone. Usually, 65% efficiency is considered the low limit of where people will operate a turbocharger compressor.
Picking either way between the trait of quick spooling and enough compressor capacity is one of the well known compromises in the world of turbocharging. And one that is readily excepted by the vast majority of turbocharger racers.

Then I came along to screw with everyones heads. Sooorryyy. :tongue:

If a person had a solution that would deal with the quick spooling side of the turbocharger choice compromise, and that would be nitrous injection, why would he then not choose a turbocharger where the engine, at its maximum airflow, would operate smack dab in the middle of the compressors highest efficiency range?

78% compressor efficiency at maximum engine airflow versus 65% compressor efficiency at maximum engine airflow.

People. That was not a hard decision for me to make.

And on top of all that, the large turbine side of my turbo choice has allowed me to achieve crossover which, with the cam that I'm using, has improved the engine VE.

Otto. Are you trying to tell me that I should have compromised the efficiency of my combination and just stepped in line with everyone else?
Who needs new discoveries anyway?

How many people told Columbus the world is flat. Don't waste your time. Yet...