new class any interest

[blown buick]

I wanted to start a new thread to open up discussion about these rules. We would like to start something new like this to join both v-6 and v-8 cars with power adders into a class were we can compete together in one class. Rick Crawford and myself have been trying to put this together for a couple of years and we were ask to resurrect it with the coming of the TA block. We have taken the rules and tried to make them simple and as open as we could without giving to much of an advantage to one combo over another. I would like to hear from guy's that might be interested in this class with ideas and suggestions.



CLASS DESCRIPTION
Buick Limited Street is a heads up class designed for stock appearing, rear wheel drive Buicks produced 1960-1987. Entries are permitted v-6 or v-8 small block or big blocks with superchargers, turbochargers, or nitrous.
All Run, NHRA Sportsman Ladder, Pro .400 tree, Heads-Up.
REQUIREMENTS AND SPECIFICATIONS
BODY
The body must retain its original appearance and profiles. Original OEM body shell type and dimension required. Aftermarket fiberglass replacement panels allowed for hood, hoodscoop, bumpers, and OEM appearing replacements that bolt on.

Aerodynamics - Taping of any parts of body, seams, or front end is prohibited.

Firewall - Firewall must be original and in stock location.

Hood/Scoop - Cowls and factory type forward facing scoops only. May be liftoff. No visible altercations to outside body for fresh air. Forward facing Hood scoop allowed for n/a. Hood/scoop must cover entire engine and induction components.

Interior - Dash, and carpeting, are required. Interior wheel wells may be modified for tire clearance. Aftermarket bucket seats are allowed. A full stock dashboard with instruments (aftermarket instruments are allowed) must be retained. The back seat may be deleted.

Lettering/Decals - Car lettering is limited to windows only.

Wheel tubs - In order to clear legal tires, mini-wheel tubs are acceptable.

Windshield/Windows –FRONT Windows must be operative but closed during racing. Front and rear windows may be lexan but must appear OEM. No lexan allowed that requires support or that does not conform to the original contour of OEM without support. No crazed, fogged, or weathered lexan that that creates a safety hazard and does not pass for the clear appearance of OEM glass.

Wings/Spoilers - Factory available front and rear spoiler or wing for specific year/make/model of body used will be allowed. A maximum of a 12” aftermarket rear wing is allowed with a maximum side height of 3.5”.

BRACKET RACING AIDS
Bracket racing aids such as optical sensors, delay boxes, stutter boxes, and throttle stops are not allowed. The application or use of any device, mechanical or electronic, that permits the driver to ascertain the position of their vehicle in relation to the starting line is prohibited.

CHASSIS/SUSPENSION
Chassis – No back-half chassis. Full factory type frame rails required. Front frame rails must remain in the stock location and may not be altered for the purpose of providing tire clearance. Tubular crossmembers are permitted. Rear frame may be notched for tire clearance. Any strengthening members may be added to a stock frame.

Front Suspension - Aftermarket direct-replacement components are allowed as long as stock mounting points are maintained on components and frame. Coilover shocks are permitted in stock spring location.
Rear Suspension - Ladder bar, or modified stock suspension. Mounting points for stock type suspension may have multiple attach points for geometry change but must be in stock location.

COOLING SYSTEM
Radiator - must be mounted in stock location. No restriction on size.

DRIVETRAIN
Automatic Transmission - Any OEM type automatic transmission with torque converter is allowed. Transbrake is allowed. Aftermarket shifter allowed but any gear change must occur as a result of an internal function of the transmission or as direct action of the driver. Pneumatic, hydraulic, electric, etc. shifters prohibited.

Manual Transmission - No planetary Leno’s, Liberty’s, Jerico type transmission. Gear change must occur by clutch interruption from driver.

Rear-end - Any automotive type allowed, any ratio.

ENGINE
Must be Buick. Any make Buick engine in any allowed body style. There is no cubic inch limit. Any internal engine modifications are allowed.

EXHAUST
All exhaust must pass thru the muffler(s).

FUEL
Fuel - Only gasoline is allowed for the primary power source. V-6’s allowed methanol or water/methanol to be added thru a small secondary system, not part of the primary fuel delivery system. Systems may not contain over two quarts of fluid.

IGNITION
Aftermarket ignitions, magnetos, multiple-step rev limiters, electronic-conversion kits, crank triggers, and external amplifier boxes are allowed.

Intake Manifold – Any commercially available single 4 barrel cast intake manifold except as outlined. Cast intake manifold may be internally modified. Naturally aspirated and v-6 engine can run fabricated sheet metal intake or cast. N/A allowed to run 2x4 setup.

Nitrous Oxide - Nitrous oxide is allowed but may not be used in conjunction with supercharger or turbocharger.

Electronics - Progressive systems and timers, which control nitrous/fuel delivery, are permitted. Electronic or automated boost controllers of any type are allowed on any forced induction vehicle.

Supercharger – Only one supercharger allow. Any Centrifugal superchargers limited to a max outlet tube diameter of Max I.D of 3.15”. No steps or sleeves allows to alter the stock I.D. of outlets. Any size roots or screw allowed. Roots or Screw may run 2x4’s carb setups.

Single Turbos- Any turbo with max outlet tube diameter I.D. 3.15. No steps or sleeves allowed to alter the stock I.D. of outlets.

Twin Turbos- Any turbo with outlets limited to 2.05” I.D.. No steps or sleeves allowed to alter stock internal I.D. outlet dimensions.

Turbo Placement - Turbo may be located anywhere inside the engine compartment, facing any
direction. Inlet must not be forward of the radiator support.
Turbo inlet may remain open to outside air.

Aftercoolers/Intercoolers - Aftercoolers/Intercoolers are permitted. Air-to-air coolers or Air-to-water coolers are the only systems acceptable. Water and ice are the only two acceptable components allowed in reservoir. Air-to-air allowed CO2 bars coolers over intercooler.

ONBOARD DIAGNOSTICS/DATA RECORDERS
Onboard diagnostic computers and data recorders are allowed. Memory and playback tachometers are acceptable. Autometer Dual Channel Ultimate II tachometers are acceptable. Optical and/or rpm pickups after the flywheel only allowed for use of data acquisition.

STEERING - Any stock or aftermarket rack-and-pinion steering is allowed.

TIRES
Rear tires may either be DOT-approved and labeled or labeled for racing slicks. DOT tires must have labels facing the outside of the body and are limited to a 30x13.5. Any slick with the max sidewall designation of 30”x10.5” allowed. The tread of tires must not protrude outside of the exterior of bodyline at top of tires.

Base Weight
3,000 lbs - Naturally Aspirated Big Block.
3,000 lbs – Any Small blocks combination.
3,200 lbs – Nitrous Big Blocks.
3,400 lbs – Supercharged v-8.
3,100 lbs - Turbocharged v-6

Air-to-water intercooler – Add 100lbs
Manual transmission – Add 200lb.

 

[blown buick]

no interest?

We have had 36 lookers but no interest. Are the rules out of line or you just don't think you can run with a v-8?
Just need some insite this will be run at the GS nats on friday and will be full quarter mile. it would be nice to see some tso cars run or any that will fit the class. I think the rules are open enough if not what needs to change


Bobb Makley

 

[scot w.]

It would do no harm to have more of a change at the buick events! Over the past years it's basically all the same stuff. Buick V6's with turbo's / Buicks with the big blocks... It would be nice to see something different, Like Prochargers, Magnachargers, turbo's on the bigblocks- Stuff like that would be nice!

Don't get me wrong, The buicks are a blast! Bowling Green's GS Nationals is a blast! and the people are awesome!

I belive everything must move with the times or in time things will get stagnant and old after awhile watching the others move ahead with the times..

I think it would be a good idea...

Scot W.

 

[KevinB]

I always wondered why those races do not cater to the fwd cars more. There are a lot of those fwd 3.8's around...some are really fast too. Something needs to be done to help these events draw more people so they can survive imo. Maybe even allow the new bread of turbo'd sbc cars to have their own class.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Don't limit turbo's and blowers to an outlet size. Limit them to compressor spec. 88mm turbos and F1-r blowers for example. I'm not up to date on twins to know what twin set-up is comparable to a single 88 or F1.

You'll also see very few full frame, stock suspension Buick V6's at 3100#. Most are built to compete in TSO and can't run glass front ends. You would have to draw from this group of guys for a decent V6 count.

I'm all for opening up the V8 classes to power adders. I think most are bored watching them run the same cars and times year in, year out.

 

[UNDER-PRESSURE]

Sounds like another boring class if it's limited to Buick V6 & V8 engines only. Why not allow Buick bodies with ANY GM V6 or V8 engine?

 

[blown buick]

Well the biggest reason is it is run at a buick event. I tell you what I race at more none buick deals than I do buick so I have no issue with it at all. But I can promise it won't fly at the gsca nats.

 

[UNDER-PRESSURE]

Well the biggest reason is it is run at a buick event. I tell you what I race at more none buick deals than I do buick so I have no issue with it at all. But I can promise it won't fly at the gsca nats.

That makes ZERO sense if you run a Buick body. Show me a Buick Regal with a factory installed 455 Buick or any Buick V8 for that matter & your class might make a little sense. It's funny that a Buick regal with a factory installed Olds / chevy engine is not welcome at this event. The body & the vin # make it a Buick.... not the engine. It might be time time to take off the blinders GSCA & see what some people are doing with there cars.

 

[S2V6RACER]

Why not allow Buick bodies with ANY GM V6 or V8 engine?

Because the Chevy V8 guys would kick our asses period.

 

[UNDER-PRESSURE]

If this class is being built to showcase the TA blocks & aftermarket buick parts why not run them against the competition? If the limiting factors are turbo size, vehicle weight, etc..... it should be balanced out? If the Buick stuff truely can't run with the competition why invest in them?

 

[turbot990]

now thats funny

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Under Pressure......#1. The GSCA will never allow anything other than a Buick engine to power anything in competition at the nats. The nats attendance is obviously shrinking but allowing in other engines in Buick bodies will only slightly increase car counts and will not offset the loss of the die hard Buick guys. I only made test passes during the week with my Chevy powered car and a few took issue with it.

I do agree. If this class is to showcase the Buick aftermarket with the V6 and V8 blocks, there should be no limits. Anything goes on a 10.5 tire. Setting up rules so a V6 and V8 run heads up side by side would be very difficult. I don't see anyone building a V6 car just for this class.

 

[blown buick]

mister under pressure do you have somthing you would like to run. Well guess what if it's not a buick it's not happening you don't run chevy at pontiac events or olds, not even mopar so quess what it's not happening. So let it die. If you want to race against a Buick than lets set a date for the nats' next year and we will go you might beat me but then again you might take a whipping just never know. I want good input on the thread not the beating of a pointless dead horse

 

[blown buick]

Dusty at present I don't see anyone running away from a fast tso car. even if the ta block drops by january it will be tough to have a motor and car together and ready by may. and if it is as you know what are the chances it will be getting down the track setting records we would like to get this together this year and try to work with the class for the next year. I would like some info from you on impeller sizes far the rules or should we just say if it's on 10.5's with a 6cyl. let it eat. We just want to have a cool power adder class. No one will get rich by winning this class. so I was in hope people would be interested to help build something for the future.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

If you want limits then you need to compare super chargers to turbos. Our local class uses this.

n2o big block 3200# and 2 kits
turbo 3300# and 94mm
supercharger 3300# and F2 or equivalent.

I can't see a V6 running any of these so you have to step back.

Big blocks with 1 kit
Turbo's at 88's
Blowers at F1-r or equal

Once the Buick V8 comes into it's own a V6 should not be able to compete. You can't get the V6 light enough and you don't want to restrict a V8 to an 88mm because he couldn't compete outside the Buick world. Someone would have to be willing to build a car or have spare parts just for this class. For instance, swapping a 106mm for an 88mm or an F3 for an F1.

 

[S2V6RACER]

Bob, I think it's a great idea. I do think when the TA block is out the V8 guys will have what they need to throw down some impressive ###'s.

I would also run it at other events, maybe try and coordinate it so TSO/TSM can still run and squeeze in your class much like I managed to run quick 8 at Columbus this year. Although outgunned there I had a great time racing against other cars.

Just need to even the playing field as much as possible.

 

[UNDER-PRESSURE]

now thats funny

No it's actualy pretty sad. What is wrong with having 1 class where Buick bodies with other V8's are allowed to compete? If these new $$ Buick $$ engine combo's are not capable of running real world numbers & staying together why not limit them to performance parts of there hey day. Maximum blower: 4-71 GMC roots blower, 2 Q jet carbs & running thru glass packs. That ought to bring in the fans. :biggrin:

 

[Buicks4speed]

If you want limits then you need to compare super chargers to turbos. Our local class uses this.

n2o big block 3200# and 2 kits
turbo 3300# and 94mm
supercharger 3300# and F2 or equivalent.

I can't see a V6 running any of these so you have to step back.

Big blocks with 1 kit
Turbo's at 88's
Blowers at F1-r or equal

Once the Buick V8 comes into it's own a V6 should not be able to compete. You can't get the V6 light enough and you don't want to restrict a V8 to an 88mm because he couldn't compete outside the Buick world. Someone would have to be willing to build a car or have spare parts just for this class. For instance, swapping a 106mm for an 88mm or an F3 for an F1.

Your right an 88/F-1 would slow things down for v-8 guys. But isn't a 88mm compressor map a bit small for a BBB? From what I remember, it wont make power like it should compared to small block with good heads due the rpm range. Especially considering you want more progressive power with a small tire and a "small" turbo on a Big motor would be a hand-full and not MPH. Plus a single with a big motor trying to breath out the exhaust is a bit restrictive. Looking at compressor housings, you need the large outlet cross section for the cfm(volume) needed to work right on a BBB compare to a smaller motor. This is why we chose the outlet restriction. F-1's wont get it done on say a 535 since it just can't move the volume of air it needs to. You end up breaking transmissions spinning the guts out of them trying to make power. Also they end up being on the very inefficient side of the compressor map. So measuring the outlet seems to be a easy way to tech and limit things for now without getting carried away. When more power parts become available, better cylinder heads, and BBB show they are running away with things, then rules will have to be addressed. Only time will tell. Hard to say without seeing what the combinations will do in Buick World. Without open rules to get cars to run, then it will be a hard road ahead. Let us see if enough will build the cars and show up to race, then decide what is needed to pull things into perspective.

Dropping the limits or being more specific on the power adders isn't a bad idea. Just needs to fit what is trying to be done. F-1 and 88's is doable but we want to make sure it doesn't leave out more than it lets in. We are looking for input.

Do the v-6 guys really need motor limitation given the chassis, weight and driveline limits???? Or is it something to consider for future reference if v-8 guy are showing the advantage. It wouldn't take much of a nitrous shot to get a bigger turbo to spool on a turbo v-6 or just add a tenth or two to some combinations.

The intent is to get a Buick power-adder class together that includes both v-6 and v-8 guys. It is the Buick Nationals and we are a small group. The faster the cars, the smaller the numbers. If we can draw from a wider range of Fast Buicks, then we can have a better car count, a more dynamic class of race cars, more attention, and hopefully draw more participation. It would be a Friday race, would that work without interfering with the v-6 program?

 

[jetmech]

I like the idea of mixing up the classes. Like someone said its time for change or be left behind. I love BG but it is the same classes year after year. What are the v8 guys saying about this?

 

[Turbo Indian]

why limit to Buick body only? why not Buick powered?