A New Drag Anti Lag System

[TURBOKID]

It would be easier to stroke that damn motor,use a PTE4788 BB turbo and matching PTC convertor,you could then stop messing with all this stuff and have the abilty at 3400#s to run in the high 7s and race a pro tree no problem.
I realize you like to think out of the box but if you would just dump that 91.5 turbo and go with a BB 4788 you wouldnt have half the trouble you have getting that motor up on the pipe and laying down some serious times.
Just my opinion.
Don't take this as I don't respect what you do or what you are trying.
Just figuring the end result is you want to race you car,run fast and have a good time rather than spending 2 years dialing it in and making it raceable.



that is what I was thinking but just didn't say it

 

[Alky V6]

Otto. Obviously, you question my choice of crankshaft stroke. Let me explain.

First off, when I started this project, the mission was not to break records or take on people with more cubes and better breathing heads. My mission at the start of this project was simply to build a Buick V6 that was durable and as efficient as possible for what it was. I was challenging no one but myself.

I started out with M&A heads that were max ported with original valve sizes because I couldn't afford any different at the time. The head porter flowed the heads and reported 210 cfm @ 28" at .600" max. I'm still using the same set. At this point in the project I'm figuring either his machine was way, way off or I've succeeded in producing a very efficient engine for what it is. To me, believe it or not, that is more gratifying than winning a race against some top dog. It's simple to throw big cubes and big flowing heads at a combination and make it go fast. Not so easy if you don't. And that's the challenge I've enjoyed.

The original target for this project was 750 hp. I think I've met my goal.

As far as the crank stroke. Which crank pin arrangement is stronger using an evenfire Buick V6? A short stroke or a long stroke?
Which stroke would best serve heads that were originally reported to me by a very reputable head porter to flow 210 cfm @ 28" at .600" lift?

 

[Alky V6]

It would be easier to stroke that damn motor,use a PTE4788 BB turbo and matching PTC convertor,you could then stop messing with all this stuff and have the abilty at 3400#s to run in the high 7s and race a pro tree no problem.
I realize you like to think out of the box but if you would just dump that 91.5 turbo and go with a BB 4788 you wouldnt have half the trouble you have getting that motor up on the pipe and laying down some serious times.
Just my opinion.
Don't take this as I don't respect what you do or what you are trying.
Just figuring the end result is you want to race you car,run fast and have a good time rather than spending 2 years dialing it in and making it raceable.



that is what I was thinking but just didn't say it

Realize that I'm on a budget here. I can't go swapping this and that out when the lastest, greatest part comes out. When I was first planning the configuration of this engine it was in the late 90s. Heck. They didn't have a PTE4788 BB, and how recently did they come out with the PTC converter? When I bought my heads, M&A was the only game in town. The heads sat for years while I saved up money for the next part. You guys sound as if I picked all these specs just last year.

 

[Alky V6]

Look. If someone wanted to sponsor an all out competitive Buick V6 build, I'd jump all over it. Then watch you guys sweat.
But, I can't afford it on my own at this point in time, so I have fun with what I have. As I've said before, I'm much happier in the test and tune lanes trying to figure out how to make my 750 hp project go faster. :biggrin: And learning and discovering along the way. That beats winning any race.

So who wants to sponsor an all out BUICK V6 build?

 

[Quint]

Guys im not the smartest with why a turbo works and why it doesnt, but have had my fair share of issues and spoken with some of the best in the buz with running 88's and bigger. Even with what Precission says the BB4788 is perfect for the GN's who want 8 sec timeslips, but the effeciency and rating on those turbos is suppose to be at 35-36#'s boost. You take a turbo like Don's and his makes more power period. Not sure if you have the stage 1 or 2 heads which make a difference in the upper RPMS. With my old school turbo, which they still sell (Gtrim), it doesnt spool quit as fast as a BB, but with my heads, still makes alot more power when I get in the upper boost levels? So if I want to go 7's, goal for 2010, we should theroretically be able to do it, with much less boost then a smaller frame turbo running the same numbers or slower. Only time will tell the whole story and yes its been alot harder then just throwing an 88 on there. I like the fact that If I wanted to go faster, just make the car safer and then turn it up. The turbo we run has loads of room left. If I want to run her at 40+#'s, then we can. Not sure how long my engine will last, but I know the car makes crazy power from our latest dyno's at 30+#'s(first time ever running to this point). By the way our latest test shows we can get to our launch RPM t step with in 1.8 sec on the button, with no more then a 100 shot, thanks to Dusty's converter. I havnt even came in hot yet on the breaks, since I dont have the break upgrade yet, which should speed up the process.

 

[Alky V6]

Quint brings up another good point. When I decided to step up to the larger turbo from the T76 I was using before, since I was using nitrous anyway, I chose a turbo that I could grow into if funds did come available to build my dream Stage II monster. This 91mm fits the bill very nicely.
Believe me, if I ever do build that Stage II headed monster, an 88mm will definitely NOT do the job.
As I stated earlier, I'm on a tight budget and can't afford to be hop skipping from part to part, turbo to turbo. This 91mm is doing me good with my present project and will more than fit the bill for any future development.

Thanks Quint.

 

[kingots2004]

good job don. i like reading about how you think out side the box and make it happen! you display the spirt of why people even fool with v-6s in the first place. to be different.

 

[TURBOKID]

I don't know about what's best now but back in 2003 I do know you can go 7.7's at over 175 with a gt4788 with ONLY 28-29 psi. with a 28 inch tire. And I never tune my car for the 1/4 I only raced the 1/8 around here but decide to run it out the back on one of the runs just to see what it would do. So I would think that if you knew how to get a good tune you could go 7.50's with the new 4788
just my 5 cents

 

[Alky V6]

I don't know about what's best now but back in 2003 I do know you can go 7.7's at over 175 with a gt4788 with ONLY 28-29 psi. with a 28 inch tire. And I never tune my car for the 1/4 I only raced the 1/8 around here but decide to run it out the back on one of the runs just to see what it would do. So I would think that if you knew how to get a good tune you could go 7.50's with the new 4788
just my 5 cents

If you were with me back when I was first putting together the configuration for this engine, and when my head porter gave me the flow numbers of my heads, would you really have thought that I could end up doing 7s with these first generation M&A heads?
210 cfm @ 28" at .600".
1.835" int valve, 1.5" exhaust.

After first receiving those flow numbers, my thoughts were that I would be very lucky to just achieve my original 750 hp goal, let alone run 7s. Do you think maybe that's why I didn't jump into a big turbo back then. Come to think of it, I think my original hp goal may have been closer to 650 hp.
This engine has surprised me at every step. Sure, it's easy now to look back and think that maybe I should have gone with a larger turbo, but really, how optimistic would you have been if you had just been handed those flow numbers? Really?

 

[Quint]

I don't know about what's best now but back in 2003 I do know you can go 7.7's at over 175 with a gt4788 with ONLY 28-29 psi. with a 28 inch tire. And I never tune my car for the 1/4 I only raced the 1/8 around here but decide to run it out the back on one of the runs just to see what it would do. So I would think that if you knew how to get a good tune you could go 7.50's with the new 4788
just my 5 cents

I would think this is a stroked engine, probably leaving at a very high launch RPM and with wider tire out back and less weight, correct? The 60 ft would hve to be sick, which would call for some traction bars as well? Sure it has been done, I think by you , but to do this consistently with stock style susp, 10.5 wide tires, not wheelie bars and pretty much a 3400-3500# car, would be dam near impossible, unless the track always hooks, air is perfect and we hve a strong tail wind

 

[baadgn]

I would think this is a stroked engine, probably leaving at a very high launch RPM and with wider tire out back and less weight, correct? The 60 ft would hve to be sick, which would call for some traction bars as well? Sure it has been done, I think by you , but to do this consistently with stock style susp, 10.5 wide tires, not wheelie bars and pretty much a 3400-3500# car, would be dam near impossible, unless the track always hooks, air is perfect and we hve a strong tail wind

Its all in the combo but trust me:biggrin: it can be done at any track, any time, with radials on stock suspension at 3400# race pro tree, up on the pipe in less than 1.5 seconds no sqweeze. I have mentioned to Don in the past that I belive his combo is unmatched. Sure with enough nitrous any thing can be made to work and don has proved that with his tenacity. But as Don has said this is not for everyone major damage can and will occur it not set up properly

 

[Quint]

Its all in the combo but trust me:biggrin: it can be done at any track, any time, with radials on stock suspension at 3400# race pro tree, up on the pipe in less than 1.5 seconds no sqweeze. I have mentioned to Don in the past that I belive his combo is unmatched. Sure with enough nitrous any thing can be made to work and don has proved that with his tenacity. But as Don has said this is not for everyone major damage can and will occur it not set up properly

Impressive Tony no doubt. If you say it, I believe it, given your track record You know more then I. What then, for the 91's or my turbo, would you say to a 7.50-7.70 pass. I guess it is trial and error, figuring out the limits. I like Don, wanted a car/turbo combo that would take me to new speeds, when I was ready for them. I wanted something different as well. I love these cars no matter what turbo it has under the hood. I do know one thng though, if the track isnt prepped well, radials will not hook on this power level. Yes, they are impressive when the tracks are up to speed, but out here in AZ, slicks are more consistent on these tracks, more times then not. If I where traveling to local tracks that favored radial classes, well thats a different story. I need to leave at more boost then the radials can handle in most cases for the times I want, with the Turbo I have. It doesnt spool quit as fast as your BB's do. If someone could convince me that you dont have to push the 88's to far past their effeciency ratings to attain a number I want, I may consider more,but from what I have found from speaking with other professionals and Precision, its un likely?

 

[Otto J]

If you were with me back when I was first putting together the configuration for this engine, and when my head porter gave me the flow numbers of my heads, would you really have thought that I could end up doing 7s with these first generation M&A heads?
210 cfm @ 28" at .600".
1.835" int valve, 1.5" exhaust.

After first receiving those flow numbers, my thoughts were that I would be very lucky to just achieve my original 750 hp goal, let alone run 7s. Do you think maybe that's why I didn't jump into a big turbo back then. Come to think of it, I think my original hp goal may have been closer to 650 hp.
This engine has surprised me at every step. Sure, it's easy now to look back and think that maybe I should have gone with a larger turbo, but really, how optimistic would you have been if you had just been handed those flow numbers? Really?

I would love to see you go for 7s,no doubt you have the turbo for it,with your old M&A heads especially if they flow 210 i would think even our 91 would be past efficiency

 

[Alky V6]

I would love to see you go for 7s,no doubt you have the turbo for it,with your old M&A heads especially if they flow 210 i would think even our 91 would be past efficiency

The compressor map for the 91mm I'm using is very impressive.

 

[baadgn]

Impressive Tony no doubt. If you say it, I believe it, given your track record You know more then I. What then, for the 91's or my turbo, would you say to a 7.50-7.70 pass. I guess it is trial and error, figuring out the limits. I like Don, wanted a car/turbo combo that would take me to new speeds, when I was ready for them. I wanted something different as well. I love these cars no matter what turbo it has under the hood. I do know one thng though, if the track isnt prepped well, radials will not hook on this power level.

If there is a turbo that will take a stock suspension into the mid 7s its the 91.5 I call that bad boy (THE CRANK BREAKER) when it lights off look out the radials can be a challenge especially the 275s but i enjoy the challenge..... sometimes. Quint your car has tremendous potential if I can help in any way let me know.

 

[Otto J]

If there is a turbo that will take a stock suspension into the mid 7s its the 91.5 I call that bad boy (THE CRANK BREAKER) when it lights off look out the radials can be a challenge especially the 275s but i enjoy the challenge..... sometimes. Quint your car has tremendous potential if I can help in any way let me know.

I thought Bobby called it the ROD breaker?

 

[HighPSI]

Who cares if the turbo is running at 85% or 70% efficiency of the compressor map? You could probably put a 108mm Pro-mod on the car spray it with a 500hp shot and raise the efficiency even higher. I guess it's the racer in me, but I'm more concerend about having a combo that can cut a light on a Pro tree and run a great ET. When a full weight car with a 70mm turbo can run an 8, a 76mm run an 8.50, and an 88mm run in the 7's, I say these "cookie cutter combinations" are working pretty well. It's true they probably have stroker cranks, but I bet their hp/ci is on par with your 5hp/ci combo

 

[Alky V6]

Who cares if the turbo is running at 85% or 70% efficiency of the compressor map? You could probably put a 108mm Pro-mod on the car spray it with a 500hp shot and raise the efficiency even higher. I guess it's the racer in me, but I'm more concerend about having a combo that can cut a light on a Pro tree and run a great ET. When a full weight car with a 70mm turbo can run an 8, a 76mm run an 8.50, and an 88mm run in the 7's, I say these "cookie cutter combinations" are working pretty well. It's true they probably have stroker cranks, but I bet their hp/ci is on par with your 5hp/ci combo

Gosh,... I care. I guess that doesn't count? I'm hurt that you'd say that.

Just how would you get more efficiency by spraying 500 at a 108 on a 224? That just sounds like silly talk.

Are you feeling a little threatened? You seem to be getting all fluffed up over something. Are you honestly thinking that my combination was put together to compete against a stroked motor? Really. Come on. You're giving me too much credit here. But, I do appreciate it. Thank you.

There's no way my little setup could beat a stroked Buick V6. NO WAY!

I'm not trying to say that my way is better than anyone elses. My project was a personal exercise on engine efficiency no matter what the size. In no way was it meant to compete against a class filled with stroked motors. I feel a little honored though that you feel threatened by it enough to put together a post like that.

If I am telling anyone anything with this project, it's that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Keep an open mind.

 

[Otto J]

If I am telling anyone anything with this project, it's that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Keep an open mind.

You think running mid 9s at 156 using 26#s of boost in a 3000# car with a 91mm turbo is considered skinning a cat???

I am sure you are taking Cal's post wrong,im pretty sure he does not feel threatened,your car would need to be totally gone through and another 3000-4000#s added to be legal to compete in ANY Buick class racing.

Dont take any of this as negative,I do enjoy reading wrong posts and your ideas.

 

[BlownV6]

Donnie, I say thanks and keep it up!! There are those that buy parts and bolt them on (yes thats safe and proven) Then there are those that dream , try , fail ,and eventually prevail. As you stated before millions of everyday items we use today were dreamed up ,planned out and tested to perfection by someone who was told that it couldnt be done!!

All you bolt on racers and keyboard geniouses can kiss this!! Racers that are breaking ground everyday are using things that most of you nerer knew existed!! And most of you wouldnt have the knowledge , skill or balls to try!!
Keep up the good work Donnie and keep us posted. You inspire those of us that dare to be different. The rest of you keep bolting on those parts that someboby dreamed up, and keep bragging about how fast your car is with all those bolt on parts.

And for those of you that think Im out of line!! Kiss this!! Then go look at your super fast car and tell me how many of those super fast parts were dreamed , designed , built ,tested and perfected by YOU!! Mike