Dyno test results when injecting 100% methanol 50/50 water/meth mix 80/20 etc.

[Ttype6]

I understand all that you say completely. I also understand the theory completely. I also understand the water injection would be a standalone.

My point is you dont see any gains in "Real Life" on a Buick for example to offset the cost of the system. This is where I ask for before and after proof when used on our cars hence the quote above "A car on E85 would be awesome as its one less thing to deal with." So if the test mule was on E-85 it would show gain using a water nozzle before the turbo.. This is where hard data is required.. And noticeable gain(HP) to offset the cost of said system. So the realization on paper and practice is what i'm looking for.. so when someone asks looking for "real data" I dont bring up Ricardo's papers from WWII.

So whose gonna try this? [/quote

Ricardo is the guy who discovered these truths in the 1930s. Frank Walker is the guy who put these principals to work in a real world application during WWII. The link I provided from Rice Racing is the documented information obtained from real world application of this principal today. It's not a theory. Global warming is a theory. Eating fat makes you fat is a theory. Saturated fat and cholesterol is the cause of heart disease,is a theory. These theories have no real science to back them up and,in fact,have piles of data to disprove them,so I would understand if you didn't believe them. Pre-turbo water injection is well proven in the real world,both in the past and today. The results then and now are the same. Do you discredit this data because it's old? Do you think the newest data is the most accurate data?Do you think Pete at Rice Racing is lying about making 700 RWHP on a two rotor Wankle? Do you think a turbo charged Buick V6 would have different results than a turbo charged Pratt and Whitney R2800 motor or a turbo charged Wankle?

If you refuse to acknowledge the facts,I don't know what else to do. You asked for data and I provided it.

Again, the turbo Buick community has refused to accept these truths and implement them.

The kit pays for itself the same way your kit does. The money you save by eliminating the cost of racing gas.

Of course this kit is cheaper and less prone to failure also.

 

[it's just a six]

Have you heard of this when using a single nozzle?
Reason I ask, is because IIRC, a guy w/a Syclone had said he was getting KR because he was injection too much meth.
I think he was running about 18 PSI, but I do not think he had the control knob turned all the way up.

 

[Razor]

So why dont you run a water kit on your Buick and let us know the results

 

[Razor]

Have you heard of this when using a single nozzle?
Reason I ask, is because IIRC, a guy w/a Syclone had said he was getting KR because he was injection too much meth.
I think he was running about 18 PSI, but I do not think he had the control knob turned all the way up.

And maybe he was running meth mixed with water? Maybe he was running too lean and got KR? Maybe he was running overly rich and spraying meth on top and motor was telling him theres a problem.

What timing? What air fuel? at 18 PSI when the KR happened..

We should start a tuning thread to stay on topic.

 

[it's just a six]

I own a Syclone .
I did not see a topic about Syclones & alcohol injection otherwise I would have posted it there.
This person was running 100% methanol, then he turned the control knob down & reduced the KR. I can see if he remembers what his timing was & the other specifics.

Thank you.

 

[Ttype6]

So why dont you run a water kit on your Buick and let us know the results

I don't think you would believe them.

 

[Razor]

I own a Syclone .
I did not see a topic about Syclones & alcohol injection otherwise I would have posted it there.
This person was running 100% methanol, then he turned the control knob down & reduced the KR. I can see if he remembers what his timing was & the other specifics.

Thank you.

Your a member here. When you get into this section just start a "new thread" and that way all the attention and replies correspond to your particular issue. Doesnt matter what type of vehicle you have.. your welcome to start a thread. And the replies dont get mixed with other stuff.
Get his info. See what his airfuel and timing was when he developed the issue. Post back.

 

[Razor]

I don't think you would believe them.

Yes I would. As long as it has some documentation like a datalog, time slips, etc. As would others here. And would really be awesome to see any long term effects to the turbo, IC, or other parts of the engine from the introduction of water.

Case in point I dont see it listed in your signature, or pictures of a water injection setup on your car. So according to you.. there exists something that could improve the performance of your Turbo Buick yet you dont take advantage of it, document it gains, etc .. On a Turbo Buick. Not a Rotary or airplane.. It is simple to do.. Just needs someone to step up to the plate.

Just takes a power logger or any other datalogger to see any results. On a car like yours should be really evident on IAT as the nozzle should impact temps.

I stay here with an open mind.

 

[Ttype6]

On a Turbo Buick. Not a Rotary or airplane.

Are you saying that you do believe the results of the people in the links and that you are skeptical about whether or not they would be similar when put to use on a Buick V6?

 

[quickt]

When you inject alcohol you're injecting a fuel that is known to allow you to make more power than gasoline . It cools and it introduces more oxygen to the motor and it burns differently. Since you're injecting a fuel,you're creating a richer mixture. You'll want to adjust the mixture for optimum performance. Once you achieve optimum performance with your mixture and you then add water,you've changed your tune and you need to re-adjust. This always has been and always will be an apples to oranges comparison.

Because(as Julio has pointed out)water flashes at a higher temp ,it's going to work better in a different/hotter environment. This is another reason it is an apples to oranges comparison. However,the application where water shines(on a turbocharged engine)is when you inject it into the very hot environment of the compressor. Water flashes very well in this application. It keeps the air from being heated in the first place. Generally speaking,the Buick community refuses to accept this very old,proven tried,and true method of extracting the most power out of a forced inducted engine. We continue to heat the air first which makes the turbo work harder and run out of breath sooner. Then we cool it down after the fact. Because pre-turbo water injection cools the air as it is being compressed,which causes less of a work load on the turbo,your turbo doesn't run out of breath as soon as it would otherwise. This causes your turbo to breath like a larger/more efficient turbo.

Nothing on the planet cools like water does. If we use water for this application,we extract the most power out of the turbo charged engine with the most efficiency. If we don't do this we are leaving a lot on the table.

After we do this we can debate fuels,but nothing takes the place of this. Not even alcohol.

Please stop comparing alcohol to water

http://www.riceracing.com.au/water-injection.htm

http://wannaspeed.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=181

Agreed Nothing has more btu cooling capacity than water. The pre turbo is a great Idea. I need to try this on my diesel.

 

[Ttype6]

Agreed Nothing has more btu cooling capacity than water. The pre turbo is a great Idea. I need to try this on my diesel.

The diesel community is one of the communities that have embraced this technology.

 

[we4Mateo]

I own a Syclone .
I did not see a topic about Syclones & alcohol injection otherwise I would have posted it there.
This person was running 100% methanol, then he turned the control knob down & reduced the KR. I can see if he remembers what his timing was & the other specifics.

Thank you.

I have done what you are saying on a n/a motor with alky. We had too cold of a plug on an aluminum headed SBC and we had knock with the alky that got worse when we added alky. We were causing hydro-knock and not monitoring AFR as close as we should have been. Long story short, correct plugs and a wideband later and we're using 60% less alky at a later turn on point, running leaner with LOTS more power, and zero KR even on crappy winter blend premium. So, if you are not watching AFR, then it's easy to overfeed alky and get hydro-knock. Same reason that you shouldn't need to turn alky up at the dyno unless you are also removing gas from the tune as AFR needs to be maintained.

 

[we4Mateo]

Thank you btw, Razor, for hooking me up with multiple alky kits and helping me getting it to work on a TPI N/A car.

 

[charlief1]

I've been watching this same debate for several years on this particular board. You can find all the data on speedtalk, engforum. devils own, and cooling mist forums. Before the turbo works the best, period! I'm not trying to scream at anyone but the 2 biggest things that most don't realize is that the whole point of using alky, water/alky, or just water, is to cool the in coming air charge to reduce detonation and improve overall power. Julio and I have been in a discussion like this before and I'll dig up the data if I have to, but I used to have it saved in a folder just for this purpose. With the changes on the new board I'll have to dig through all my posts to find it.

The most efficient coolant on the planet is water, no questions there. For a turbo system that's just using alky put it after turbo. For the most efficient cooling of the air in a turbo system use a 50/50 mix of water and alky put in pre-turbo, with a prefered nozzle distance of 12".

The reason I posted this info this way is because it's actually a quote (italicised) from the late great Smokey Yunik. Even if you're using an intercooler it's still best to run pre-turbo. The reason is as stated above plus one more. With the coolant of choice going over the compressor blades, the air is cooled as it gets compressed, which means that you get a much denser air charge in the system. There is the risk of the mixture dropping out once it gets through the turbo and into the intercooler but the amount is very small. One thread I read some time ago included several videos on a ferd SVO stock engine that ended up making 495 hp with a completely stock engine. When they pulled the intercooler off non of the mixture of 50/50 was left in it. This wasn't a ferd board, it was a turbo board or one of the previously mentioned boards. I don't remember the boost pressure or anything else other than the guy doing the test made a point of stating the total HP both before and after the instaltion.

 

[Razor]

Must be winter..

Gatorade is better..

 

[Mr.Spool]

what never seems to get discussed on these boards is what goes wrong with things like pre turbo inj.i have seen very expensive superchargers fail due to the coatings on the blades not being able to survive the inj.i for one would not do this on my turbo as their are other ways of going faster.maybe the turbos can handle it maybe not but who finds out and for how long.i have lost a comp wheel before pretty scary moment taking everything apart wondering where it went and that was no preturbo inj.

 

[charlief1]

One thing to remember in regards to pre or post turbo is the fact that carbs have been mounted before the turbo to add power to the engine, since the 1920's and have been working that way for a while. Water and nitrous have been used with them since the 1940's. We've got much better technology these days to control detonation ect in an engine which makes things much easier. Carbs were mounted on top of blowers for how long now and they worked then as well as now.

 

[bison]

I've been watching this same debate for several years on this particular board. You can find all the data on speedtalk, engforum. devils own, and cooling mist forums. Before the turbo works the best, period! I'm not trying to scream at anyone but the 2 biggest things that most don't realize is that the whole point of using alky, water/alky, or just water, is to cool the in coming air charge to reduce detonation and improve overall power. Julio and I have been in a discussion like this before and I'll dig up the data if I have to, but I used to have it saved in a folder just for this purpose. With the changes on the new board I'll have to dig through all my posts to find it.

The most efficient coolant on the planet is water, no questions there. For a turbo system that's just using alky put it after turbo. For the most efficient cooling of the air in a turbo system use a 50/50 mix of water and alky put in pre-turbo, with a prefered nozzle distance of 12".

The reason I posted this info this way is because it's actually a quote (italicised) from the late great Smokey Yunik. Even if you're using an intercooler it's still best to run pre-turbo. The reason is as stated above plus one more. With the coolant of choice going over the compressor blades, the air is cooled as it gets compressed, which means that you get a much denser air charge in the system. There is the risk of the mixture dropping out once it gets through the turbo and into the intercooler but the amount is very small. One thread I read some time ago included several videos on a ferd SVO stock engine that ended up making 495 hp with a completely stock engine. When they pulled the intercooler off non of the mixture of 50/50 was left in it. This wasn't a ferd board, it was a turbo board or one of the previously mentioned boards. I don't remember the boost pressure or anything else other than the guy doing the test made a point of stating the total HP both before and after the instaltion.

I've got 2 engines I can test this theory on. Send me the turbo and I'll pre-inject water till I'm blue in the face. It has to be a turbo that I can run with the wastegate closed for accurate comparison. A 60-1 would be nice. I don't want to hot mine with a bunch of water though. I'll make back to back dyno pulls at whatever targets/timing you want up until I feel I'm at the edge. Based on the posts I'm reading here it seems as though some are saying pre injecting water will actually increase the size of the efficiency Islands on the compressor map. I'm saying it won't. So anyone who wants to send me their turbo or gift me $300 on paypal I'll run the test. Turbo will be run for all it's worth. I'll refund the $ if no damage to the compressor occurs.

 

[charlief1]

I've got 2 engines I can test this theory on. Send me the turbo and I'll pre-inject water till I'm blue in the face. It has to be a turbo that I can run with the wastegate closed for accurate comparison. A 60-1 would be nice. I don't want to hot mine with a bunch of water though. I'll make back to back dyno pulls at whatever targets/timing you want up until I feel I'm at the edge. Based on the posts I'm reading here it seems as though some are saying pre injecting water will actually increase the size of the efficiency Islands on the compressor map. I'm saying it won't. So anyone who wants to send me their turbo or gift me $300 on paypal I'll run the test. Turbo will be run for all it's worth. I'll refund the $ if no damage to the compressor occurs.

I'll be doing it myself Brian. It is a carbed turbo after all.

 

[Grumpy]

I'll be doing it myself Brian. It is a carbed turbo after all.

oh ok.. HA... ummmmm never mind.