Dyno Day -- Stock unopened w/ GT6776dbb & 20 psi

[BMF_Racing]

I want to say roughly 550-575 FwHP, but dont quote me on that.

What does everyone else think? When does the stock main caps crack, assuming no knock???

 

[bison]

What does everyone else think? When does the stock main caps crack, assuming no knock???

The caps could break when the car is running over 125mph repeatedly in the quarter. Keep in mind i said could, not will. The stock bottom has been mid 130's. Not sure for how long though. You have a ways to go to get to that point. You stated a conservative tune. 11.5-11.7:1 is not very conservative on an alky tune. Personally id go for 11.0-11.3:1 with 110 octane/alky and 10.8-11.0 on 93/alky and run the boost and especially the timing up if on 110 octane. At 20 psi and 110 you could have easily ran 28-29 degrees advance and picked up a bunch. I ran alky and 110 at 24.5psi and 26 degrees advance and made 559/706 on a Mustang with a decent running iron headed stock block through the stock MAFS, 16% converter slip, and the same exhaust trim you have. Your on the right track here. Just fatten it a little and increase the boost and timing. You will have to add in a bunch of fuel when going back to 93 octane pump gas or it will be in the 12.0:1+ a/f range. Way to lean. Dont be to concerned with dyno numbers either.

 

[Blazer406]

What does everyone else think? When does the stock main caps crack, assuming no knock???

IMHO... you ought to be able to break into the 10's on a stock longblock without worring to bad..... I think the first things to happen is the caps "walk".... which soon leads to a spun bearing....or worse.... but I think this would be mid 10's or faster...repeatedly beating on it... assuming no knock.... if you get knock.... she could go alot faster... and at a lot slower ET.... if no knock... let her rip...

I'm impressed as others are for a stock motor... with such conservative boost and timing.... but agree with Bison.... the AFR was definately not conservative.... I'd fatten her up some...

 

[BMF_Racing]

Perfect, thanks for the advise guys. That's the info I was looking for. I wasn't sure how lean to make these engines (been tuning 4 valve motors 4bangers and 12.0 is np there, but that 4v stuff is totally different). I will get it back to the high 10's low 11's on th WB and maybe add some timing. hoping to run boost in the 23 to 24 area and see how she likes it. :biggrin:

Will post sometime in 2 weeksor so,

Thanks again guys.

Brad

 

[Blazer406]

IMHO... with stock heads... they are such a restriction... you will see people push the boost quite a bit higher than you would see with a good flowing set of heads....because the restriction keeps more of the air from filling the cylinders.... so anotherwords.... it might take 32 psi boost on a stock set of heads to equal the same lb/min flow into the cylinders of a ported head motor (everything else the same).... at only 24 psi.

My point is.... tune for no knock... and keep inching the boost up.... you might find you can go considerably higher (and you will to get great power)... on the boost... than you originally thought....

I think Tim Stockwell hit north of 30 psi regularly... on his way to the record breaking 10.7x pass on his stock motor...with a TA62 I think.... anyway... it was a smaller turbo than you are running on that motor...

 

[BMF_Racing]

Sounds good.

Is there a rule of thumb for whp to 1/4 ET or MPH?
-Assuming good slipage %'s and traction

like 300 whp is ~ a 12.50 @ 106 mph ish OR
600whp is ~ 9.80 @ 130 mph ish ??

 

[salvageV6]

There are calculators you can use to figure all that out.

Obviously ET time is based a lot on traction and 60 ft. times.

With 420RWHP people have gone high 11's in heavy cars with avg. 60ft.s to low 11's with good 60ft.'s in lighter cars.

TCI I believe has calculators on their site, I'd do a search on this site for "racing calculators" that should bring up a ton of them to use.

On a dyno. 11.5 is plenty rich in my stock motored cars, but I don't replace 30% of my fuel with alky.

It's just there to keep detonation away.

 

[BMF_Racing]

There are calculators you can use to figure all that out.

Obviously ET time is based a lot on traction and 60 ft. times.

With 420RWHP people have gone high 11's in heavy cars with avg. 60ft.s to low 11's with good 60ft.'s in lighter cars.

TCI I believe has calculators on their site, I'd do a search on this site for "racing calculators" that should bring up a ton of them to use.

On a dyno. 11.5 is plenty rich in my stock motored cars, but I don't replace 30% of my fuel with alky.

It's just there to keep detonation away.

We were going to start with the 385whp tune at first, hoping for somewhere in the 12.2 to 12.4 area. Then maybe turn it up alittle at a time. Safe than sorry.

Thanks for info. :biggrin:

 

[bison]

We were going to start with the 385whp tune at first, hoping for somewhere in the 12.2 to 12.4 area. Then maybe turn it up alittle at a time. Safe than sorry.

Thanks for info. :biggrin:

You can run 11's with 385whp.

 

[KevinB]

Brad, looks great! Last time I was at Cincy Speed, we couldn't get the tach on the dyno to work on my car. I guess Craig figured it out??

Time to take it to the track

 

[1980monteturbo]

6776 dbb & stock converter combo ?

Well to start off The motor is a unopened 109 with a set of club valve springs. The other mods that are not stock and matter are:


6776 dbb, ESP FMIC, 60# inj, Alky Injec 490ml nozzel, MAFT Pro w/LM-1, 62mm TB, 62mm Hemco, 3" THDP, Red Arm. pump/hot wired, e-cutout at end of DP (open). --- Everything else is stock.



Well after doing alittle tuning on the car on the way to the dyno (Wicked Women of the 1/4 mile Dyno Day @Cincy Speed) this morning, we came up with the following conservitive tune (still stock trans/convertor).


Thanks,
Brad

Hi Brad
Just wondering how you like the dbb/stock stall combo on the street. Could you do with more stall? or is it tolerable.
Eventually I will be at the crossroads with the decision to upgrade turbo ( gamble on lag ) or converter to compliment a turbo upgrade later. ( I cant budget for both on same year. )
Comments appreciated.

Look fwd to seeing the track results.

thx
Steve.

 

[BMF_Racing]

Brad, looks great! Last time I was at Cincy Speed, we couldn't get the tach on the dyno to work on my car. I guess Craig figured it out??

Time to take it to the track

Yeah, no problems at all. :biggrin: thanks.

 

[BMF_Racing]

Hi Brad
Just wondering how you like the dbb/stock stall combo on the street. Could you do with more stall? or is it tolerable.
Eventually I will be at the crossroads with the decision to upgrade turbo ( gamble on lag ) or converter to compliment a turbo upgrade later. ( I cant budget for both on same year. )
Comments appreciated.

Look fwd to seeing the track results.

thx
Steve.

Steve,

Honestly it is a bit laggy if you stomp it from a dead stop from idle, but if you tq it up, She can get just over 1 psi of boost (thats it) and then nail it it launches soft (I'm guessing it would be around 1.8 to 1.85 60ft) , but somewhere around 30ft out it really comes alive. Once it builds 5 psi, it is at 20 psi in no time at all (maybe half second?) and hauling ass. It pulled much harder then I expected from a stock motor with 20 psi. Normal driving it very nice, and has very very good street manners. Other than the crazy sounds coming from under the hood, even at light throttle (Sucking, hissing, shuttering, so on. Sounds like a helicopter sometimes). It is very close to stock on drivablility, at least till you hammer down on the throttle, then you know why you spent the money.:biggrin:

But really, no joke, turbo sounds are very loud with a 4" inlet pipe. (We went from stock turbo to the 6776bb.) If I wasn't going to race from a dead stop, it will work for some time with a stock convertor with no issues as long as you don't turn it up too much. For what its worth, it will still spool up faster than many turbo Hondas I've drove LOL.


Hope this helps.:biggrin:

Brad

 

[ijames]

Sounds good.

Is there a rule of thumb for whp to 1/4 ET or MPH?
-Assuming good slipage %'s and traction

like 300 whp is ~ a 12.50 @ 106 mph ish OR
600whp is ~ 9.80 @ 130 mph ish ??

Formulas? Someone asked for formulas?

First, on average, et=1356/mph. Mph is a good indicator of hp, et is a good indicator of traction, so it is always nice to calculate an et from your mph to see how you are doing, and to use the calculated et for hp estimates.

Second, average wheel hp = 197 * weight in lbs going down the track / (et * et * et).

So, lets assume 3800 lbs with you in the car in racing trim, and starting with your dyno plot guess an average whp of 420 since after the launch you should be over 5000 rpm most of the time. Plugging in the hp equation, 420 = 197 * 3800 / et^3 so the calculated et is 12.12 sec, and the average mph for that would be 1356/12.12 = 111.9 mph. To go the other way and find out how much hp you need to run an 11.50, for example, that would be hp = 197 * 3800 / (11.50 * 11.50 * 11.50) = 492 average whp.

Last, I run a plain bearing 6776 with stock longblock, V2 frontmount, 3000 stall 10" converter, ATR headers (probably aren't helping at this et), through a dual 2.5" ATR exhaust with Ultraflow mufflers. On 93 octane, no alky, I can run 22-23 psi boost with no knock and 18-20 degrees of timing, and run 110-111 mph in the low 12's, at 4060 lbs going down the track the last time I weighed everything. Using 110 mph as typical (instead of best ever ), that back calculates to an et of 1356/110=12.3 and depending on traction I get anywhere from 12.5 to 12.0, and an average whp of 197*4060/12.3^3=430 hp which agrees very well with your dyno pull (especially considering your slightly lower boost). I run 72 lb/hr injectors at about 75% duty cycle, about 11.5 afr according to my lm1 wbo2, and yes, it took a lot of tuning to get there on 93 octane only. Then I pulled the motor and tore it down to put on some ta heads, and then I got lazy, and there it sits, sigh .

 

[vacuum 6]

Well it is more lag than desirable, but less than I expected. Once it builds 5 psi (~3300rpm) it is at 20 psi (~3500 rpm if memory serves me correct? may be lower) in no time at all, guessing like .5 to .6 of a second. I get partial throttle boost going up hills with hardly any throttle % at all, so this thing spools quicker than you'd think. I know its not saying much, but even with as far mismatched the 67mm turbo is for stock stall, it still spools much faster than 90% of turbo'd Hondas I've driven.

Wow a 6776 with a stock 12" and spools ok...nice to hear!

 

[BMF_Racing]

Formulas? Someone asked for formulas?

First, on average, et=1356/mph. Mph is a good indicator of hp, et is a good indicator of traction, so it is always nice to calculate an et from your mph to see how you are doing, and to use the calculated et for hp estimates.

Second, average wheel hp = 197 * weight in lbs going down the track / (et * et * et).

So, lets assume 3800 lbs with you in the car in racing trim, and starting with your dyno plot guess an average whp of 420 since after the launch you should be over 5000 rpm most of the time. Plugging in the hp equation, 420 = 197 * 3800 / et^3 so the calculated et is 12.12 sec, and the average mph for that would be 1356/12.12 = 111.9 mph. To go the other way and find out how much hp you need to run an 11.50, for example, that would be hp = 197 * 3800 / (11.50 * 11.50 * 11.50) = 492 average whp.

Last, I run a plain bearing 6776 with stock longblock, V2 frontmount, 3000 stall 10" converter, ATR headers (probably aren't helping at this et), through a dual 2.5" ATR exhaust with Ultraflow mufflers. On 93 octane, no alky, I can run 22-23 psi boost with no knock and 18-20 degrees of timing, and run 110-111 mph in the low 12's, at 4060 lbs going down the track the last time I weighed everything. Using 110 mph as typical (instead of best ever ), that back calculates to an et of 1356/110=12.3 and depending on traction I get anywhere from 12.5 to 12.0, and an average whp of 197*4060/12.3^3=430 hp which agrees very well with your dyno pull (especially considering your slightly lower boost). I run 72 lb/hr injectors at about 75% duty cycle, about 11.5 afr according to my lm1 wbo2, and yes, it took a lot of tuning to get there on 93 octane only. Then I pulled the motor and tore it down to put on some ta heads, and then I got lazy, and there it sits, sigh .

GREAT INFO. :biggrin:

 

[1980monteturbo]

Steve,

Honestly it is a bit laggy if you stomp it from a dead stop from idle, but if you tq it up, She can get just over 1 psi of boost (thats it) and then nail it it launches soft (I'm guessing it would be around 1.8 to 1.85 60ft) , but somewhere around 30ft out it really comes alive. Once it builds 5 psi, it is at 20 psi in no time at all (maybe half second?) and hauling ass. It pulled much harder then I expected from a stock motor with 20 psi. Normal driving it very nice, and has very very good street manners. Other than the crazy sounds coming from under the hood, even at light throttle (Sucking, hissing, shuttering, so on. Sounds like a helicopter sometimes). It is very close to stock on drivablility, at least till you hammer down on the throttle, then you know why you spent the money.:biggrin:

But really, no joke, turbo sounds are very loud with a 4" inlet pipe. (We went from stock turbo to the 6776bb.) If I wasn't going to race from a dead stop, it will work for some time with a stock convertor with no issues as long as you don't turn it up too much. For what its worth, it will still spool up faster than many turbo Hondas I've drove LOL.


Hope this helps.:biggrin:

Brad

Great info. Very descriptive.
I thought lag would be worse. Sounds like a fun street car.
thx
Steve

 

[bison]

I run 72 lb/hr injectors at about 75% duty cycle, about 11.5 afr according to my lm1 wbo2, and yes, it took a lot of tuning to get there on 93 octane only. Then I pulled the motor and tore it down to put on some ta heads, and then I got lazy, and there it sits, sigh .

Are you sure about your dc? You should be at 600-620fwhp for 75% on 6 72's if the BSFC is .55lb/hr per hp. More like 55% dc tops without alky. Much lower with it. 11.5 is a lean tune when pushing 93 on the edge.

 

[ijames]

Are you sure about your dc? You should be at 600-620fwhp for 75% on 6 72's if the BSFC is .55lb/hr per hp. More like 55% dc tops without alky. Much lower with it. 11.5 is a lean tune when pushing 93 on the edge.

Anywhere from 11.0 to 11.5 as I played with the tuning. I think on 93 you need more like .65 for bsfc and closer to 11.0 is better, but that's just me. May also be Maryland pump gas since we've had rfg II for years and now the extra oxygenate from the mandated ethanol, so who knows what the true stoich ratio is anymore? Oh, I also left out (didn't want to post a novel ) that I run 39 psi base fuel pressure, not 43 psi, to keep the idle pw up some for a better idle.