build a 200-4R for 1,000 HP

Alky V6

Let's go racing, boyz!
Your statement above that fluid is only one of other means used to cool a clutch pack is incorrect. Its the only way to remove heat from a steel.

The clutch lining holds oil (kind like a sponge) that is used to disperse heat. Sooo if the clutch does not hold enough oil on the shift the heat that was generated will still be present to some degree. This will start to cause the clutches to glaze loosing their ability to retain and release fluid so the clutches ability to disperse heat is now even more reduced. The more the clutch glazes the less fluid is retained the more heat will be generated till the clutch looses its holding capacity and of course it will fail. The thicker steel will help this problem to a degree. It will slow the heating process. Its still the clutches ability to retain a sufficient amount of oil that is the radiator of sorts not the steels alone. Just using a clutch material that will hold more oil will disperse more heat.

I can see where the thin steels in a road race application where shift cycling 2-3 3-2 Etc. can build heat that cannot be removed quick enough before the next shift cycle. In this case thicker steels is much better option. In a drag racing application or typical street application where there is not a lot of shift cycling thinner clutches and steels to increase the capacity can work very well. The drum that Chris is working on would be the best of both worlds.
I am very familiar with the principle of operation manual for the 200-4R. It is well worn out.

You're absolutely correct that the fluid removes heat from the frictions and the steels. You're also correct that the fluid in the frictions absorbs and dissipates much of the heat generated during the application of the clutch and after the application of the clutch. I think you are missing the point I tried to make. The fluid removes the heat from the steels after the clutch has applied. The steels absorb some of the heat generated during the application of the clutch. I never stated that the steels were the only means of absorbing or removing heat from the act of the clutch applying. I may not have covered all the ways that heat is absorbed from the act of the clutch applying, and how the heat is removed or dissipated after the clutch has applied, and if that confused you about what I was trying to get across, I apologize.
It appears to me by your statements that you do understand that the steel plates do act as a heat sink to some degree. Right?

Back to the example of the brakes. The rotor absorbs the majority of the actual heat generated during the act of braking. The pads also absorb some heat and the material is sacrificed as it burns away. The act of the pad material burning away into brake dust actually absorbs some of the braking heat. In an automatic transmission clutch, just like quickt explained the friction material is not sacrificed and the fluid is what draws the majority of the heat generated, even to the point that the fluid vaporizes when the heat has reached the vaporization temperature of the fluid. After it has vaporized, the frictions and steels have to absorb the heat being generated and since they're so tiny compared to a true dry clutch design, the frictions and steels burn from being overheated. The steels will do their part to absorb heat from the fluid to keep the fluid from reaching the vaporization temperature. When the steel has heat soaked and can no longer help draw heat from the fluid, and if the duration of the shift is still occurring, heat will quickly reach vaporization temperature and things start going bad.
Back to the brake example. After the brake has been applied and the brake pedal released, air circulating around the rotor will draw heat, that has accumulated in the rotor, away from it. Much like the fluid in an automatic transmission will draw away the heat that has accumulated in the clutch pack. Yes, the fluid did dissipate a lot of the heat during application, but not all of it. The frictions and steels still need some cooling time before the next application of the clutch. As quickt already stated, if the frequency of on-off application is too quick and the pack has not had time to properly cool, the heat will continue to build with each application until the steels can no longer help draw heat from the fluid during application and the fluid, reaching the vaporization temperature much quicker, and before the shift has finish, will vaporize away and leave the clutch to act like a tiny dry clutch. It will burn.

My mission at the start was not to have to explain this in such detail, but I suppose it might have confused some. Sorry for the confusion.

Is there anything else anyone is unclear about?
 

Alky V6

Let's go racing, boyz!
My testing indicates that its better to run .091 steels with grooved red clutches vs more clutches and thinner steels at least up to 250psi line. With the stamped steel plate on top ive noticed hot spotting and wear on the top friction plate facing the stamped pressure plate. Im sure even with the aluminum piston you still get some deflection at the stamped pressure plate and retaining ring from the abrupt apply of the clutch pack. The bottom frictions have looked really good with the aluminum piston where they were not previously. The new setup Chris has in the works should alleviate the deflection at the top.
Don't let me forget to tell you what I feel about the grooved red frictions.
 

quickt

Well-Known Member
Let's explore that then. Before I can give you a suggestion, let's get some information about the circumstances of the failure.

At what performance level were you not seeing output shafts break?
What was different from that performance level to when you started to commonly see output shafts twisting? What is the performance level where the outputs are twisting?
What clutch pack capacities were you using in each case? You made that a little unclear when you first acted like you were still using 6 packs, but then claimed you hadn't used 6 packs for awhile now.
What line pressures were you using in each above case?
Was a transbrake being used in each case? What about foot breaking in either case?
How long had the transmission been used for racing before the output shaft twisted? Was it a fresh core or did the unit have years of racing time on it?

Let's start with that. Depending on your answers, I may have more questions. We'll try to get to the bottom of this for you.
1987 Buick Regal Street Sleeper - Features - GM High-Tech Performance

This is the example car. The trans was built in 2003 time frame. I freshened this transmission last year for the first time. The car had 3 owners trans was never removed and was running mid 9s when it was removed. I have no idea how many passes but when Rob owned the car he put 50 hits on it min. At freshen up the only parts that were in need of replacement was the forward planet, rear planet, band and the output shaft.. I preformed a full freshen of the trans but the 8 clutch 3rd was still in very good shape. The shaft was twisted about 3 splines. I have only encountered 3 maybe 4 output shafts twisted never one that has broken. In all case they were cars that were in the 9.50 et range. I do use 6 clutch in my lowest level trans that is typically used in low sec cars. Everything else gets 8 stack Hi energy carbon plate that I have lined with forward steels and a forward plate that has been cut for clearance. I do not dual feed I remove the sleeve in the center support reposition and use the large side of the piston for 3rd clutch apply small side for reverse. Trans has very little overlap this way. Trade secret for those interested. Line 275psi. In this case have no idea when shaft twisted. i was being raced when the band lug broke off. My own transbrake electric launched from manual low. BTW I would like to purchase you 2004R principal of operation manual if it the GM one I have been looking for one for 2 years.
 

blackplague

Are you watching Phil?
I Have A Stock Output Shaft At The Spectragraph

I have a stock output shaft at the spectra-graph machine right now. We'll see what the stock material is made of and what rockwell it's currently at, that way we can see if it can be Enhanced.


Didn't Eric Schertz ( god rest his soul) put a aluminum driveshaft in his car to stop the stock output shaft from breaking? Shock loads perhaps?(HHMMMM!!!)
 

Alky V6

Let's go racing, boyz!
I have a stock output shaft at the spectra-graph machine right now. We'll see what the stock material is made of and what rockwell it's currently at, that way we can see if it can be Enhanced.


Didn't Eric Schertz ( god rest his soul) put a aluminum driveshaft in his car to stop the stock output shaft from breaking? Shock loads perhaps?(HHMMMM!!!)
I can imagine that an aluminum driveshaft would absorb some of the tortional loading to help out the other components, but I would pick a safer component to use as a power absorber than the driveshaft. I'm sure his choice to go with the aluminum shaft was primarily based on lowering rotating mass and inertia.
 

86brick

It's just a V6 Brick.....
1987 Buick Regal Street Sleeper - Features - GM High-Tech Performance

This is the example car. The trans was built in 2003 time frame. I freshened this transmission last year for the first time. The car had 3 owners trans was never removed and was running mid 9s when it was removed. I have no idea how many passes but when Rob owned the car he put 50 hits on it min. At freshen up the only parts that were in need of replacement was the forward planet, rear planet, band and the output shaft.. I preformed a full freshen of the trans but the 8 clutch 3rd was still in very good shape. The shaft was twisted about 3 splines. I have only encountered 3 maybe 4 output shafts twisted never one that has broken. In all case they were cars that were in the 9.50 et range. I do use 6 clutch in my lowest level trans that is typically used in low sec cars. Everything else gets 8 stack Hi energy carbon plate that I have lined with forward steels and a forward plate that has been cut for clearance. I do not dual feed I remove the sleeve in the center support reposition and use the large side of the piston for 3rd clutch apply small side for reverse. Trans has very little overlap this way. Trade secret for those interested. Line 275psi. In this case have no idea when shaft twisted. i was being raced when the band lug broke off. My own transbrake electric launched from manual low. BTW I would like to purchase you 2004R principal of operation manual if it the GM one I have been looking for one for 2 years.

Lonnie,

It's good to hear Rob's car is still around, I used to have a few videos of that thing running 9's at BG before my last PC crashed. That is one of my favorite Stage2 street cars, really a sleeper with the bench seat and column shift and I really like the fact that he kept the 200-4R.
 

Alky V6

Let's go racing, boyz!
1987 Buick Regal Street Sleeper - Features - GM High-Tech Performance

This is the example car. The trans was built in 2003 time frame. I freshened this transmission last year for the first time. The car had 3 owners trans was never removed and was running mid 9s when it was removed. I have no idea how many passes but when Rob owned the car he put 50 hits on it min. At freshen up the only parts that were in need of replacement was the forward planet, rear planet, band and the output shaft.. I preformed a full freshen of the trans but the 8 clutch 3rd was still in very good shape. The shaft was twisted about 3 splines. I have only encountered 3 maybe 4 output shafts twisted never one that has broken. In all case they were cars that were in the 9.50 et range. I do use 6 clutch in my lowest level trans that is typically used in low sec cars. Everything else gets 8 stack Hi energy carbon plate that I have lined with forward steels and a forward plate that has been cut for clearance. I do not dual feed I remove the sleeve in the center support reposition and use the large side of the piston for 3rd clutch apply small side for reverse. Trans has very little overlap this way. Trade secret for those interested. Line 275psi. In this case have no idea when shaft twisted. i was being raced when the band lug broke off. My own transbrake electric launched from manual low. BTW I would like to purchase you 2004R principal of operation manual if it the GM one I have been looking for one for 2 years.
What sort of launch are they doing? How much boost? What's the stall of the T/C? What rpm are they at when they release the transbrake? What rpm band does the engine run in? Mid-range cam? High-rpm cam? Using a high torque multiplication factor with the T/C? Slicks? What size? What's the rear axle ratio? What kind of 60 foots? How much does the car weigh? How hard does it launch? Wheels up high in the air?

The band anchor that broke. Was it OEM or a billet?

If there's a video of the car making a run, post a link.

I'm not interested in selling the poo manual, but if it's that hard to find, email me and I'll figure out something.
 

quickt

Well-Known Member
What sort of launch are they doing? How much boost? What's the stall of the T/C? What rpm are they at when they release the transbrake? What rpm band does the engine run in? Mid-range cam? High-rpm cam? Using a high torque multiplication factor with the T/C? Slicks? What size? What's the rear axle ratio? What kind of 60 foots? How much does the car weigh? How hard does it launch? Wheels up high in the air?

The band anchor that broke. Was it OEM or a billet?

If there's a video of the car making a run, post a link.

I'm not interested in selling the poo manual, but if it's that hard to find, email me and I'll figure out something.
The band was one that CK had made years ago. BTW it was better than some of the junk we get from Alto these days. The apply mounting on the band was riveted on the band. The pin just broke threw the apply lug. Your asking detail questions that I can not answer. I never drove the car and did not build it. The car chassis dynoed like 760 and the tire. I do know the cam was a 244/244 roller. 28x10 slicks car 60ft was like mid 1.35s converter and other cant tell you.
 

Alky V6

Let's go racing, boyz!
The band was one that CK had made years ago. BTW it was better than some of the junk we get from Alto these days. The apply mounting on the band was riveted on the band. The pin just broke threw the apply lug. Your asking detail questions that I can not answer. I never drove the car and did not build it. The car chassis dynoed like 760 and the tire. I do know the cam was a 244/244 roller. 28x10 slicks car 60ft was like mid 1.35s converter and other cant tell you.
So the band anchor hole busted out. Not the band anchor itself snapping off? Was the band anchor pin OEM or billet aftermarket?
 

quickt

Well-Known Member
I have a stock output shaft at the spectra-graph machine right now. We'll see what the stock material is made of and what rockwell it's currently at, that way we can see if it can be Enhanced.


Didn't Eric Schertz ( god rest his soul) put a aluminum driveshaft in his car to stop the stock output shaft from breaking? Shock loads perhaps?(HHMMMM!!!)
Hey could you throw and forward drum shaft and input in that machine and let us know what they are to. :cool:
 

TexasT

Texas, Where are you from
BTW I would like to purchase you 2004R principal of operation manual if it the GM one I have been looking for one for 2 years.
First off, I would like to THANK, each and everyone who has taken the time to post. I know you are professionals and I am glad you want to help us amateurs understand the 'mysterious' inner workings of the 200 4r. Great stuff!

I got my POO 200 4r manual from ebay. They pop up pretty regularly and are very cool to me. This guy is proud of his

eBay Motors: HYDRAMATIC THM 200-4r

so you might put in a search that emails you to get a cheaper one.
 

Alky V6

Let's go racing, boyz!
donnie, what about the grooved red frictions?
I've used smooth and grooved frictions. Where you're not pushing the limits of the high/rev clutch with lower hp levels, you can get away with either design. As you push up to more hp, the type of friction you use becomes much more critical. I have not had any luck with smooth lined frictions in hp levels of around 700 to 750hp. I've never worked with hp levels higher than that because I never had a client subject car of that caliber. You guys that aren't in California have much faster cars than anyone that's local to my shop. People can barely afford their mortgage, let alone build a 9 second GN. My personal race car was at a level much higher (900hp) and I didn't want to waste time trying to make a 200-4R work with that. quickt uses an 8 pack in his high hp applications. To me, with todays present technology, that is the best compromise of friction surface area and heat sinking capacity. Chris' setup sounds promising. Testing will tell.
Back to the frictions. I groove my own frictions. I've found that works better than smooth lined frictions. I recall once being at a trans expo and talking to an Alto rep about making a grooved friction for the 200-4R high/rev clutch. I also called their office and talked to them about it. I was really getting tired of hand grooving frictions. There must have been enough people inquiring around the same time I was because within a year they had grooved frictions available. My mistake was not giving some input into how many grooves to put on the plates!!! Holy cow! There are way too many grooves on the presently available frictions. Some may think, well, the grooves help to pump fluid through the pack to remove heat. Yes it does. But, you must understand that each groove also takes away from valuable friction surface contact area real estate.

Next time you have a chance, measure the size of one groove and calculate how much surface area is sacrificed to the grooves. It's been awhile since I did that so I don't recall the exact percentage, but it is surprisingly high. Somewhere between 25% to 50% from each side!!!

So yes. I do believe in using grooved frictions. But a much less number of grooves than what's commercially available.

Maybe someone with some clout can call Alto and try to have them reduce the number of grooves. That would be nice.
 

Alky V6

Let's go racing, boyz!
Any feedback on the Raybestos frictions? Such as BluePlateSpecial, Stage1, Eclipse etc..

Product Sheets | Raybestos Powertrain Company


http://www.raybestospowertrain.com/pdf/product_sheets/clutch_plate_guide.pdf
My experience with the redlined compared to the blue plates is that the blue plates are tougher. When the redlined plates get stressed to a certain point, they will sacrifice material and will thin out. The blue plates will burn, but material loss is much slower. The blue plates can take more heat and continue to operate, but the steels can't and ultimately the steels become the limiting factor. When the steels start to develop hot spots (hardened, raised spots on the surface of the plate) and warp, the clutch goes down hill fast. I have no experience with the other materials you're mentioning.
 

Alky V6

Let's go racing, boyz!
Yes , 4340 aftermarket
A Stage II engine with cam specs like that, I would guess he's leaving the line at around 5,000+ rpm off the transbrake, and we don't even know what the boost is at the launch! I'd say you're very lucky the shaft hasn't twisted much sooner than now.
 
Ive used blue plates in other applications, never a 200r4 and they seem to hold up well in the heat. Ive used reds and they seem to hold up well. I guess its up to the level of power and how well the trans works as a whole. Ive used blue plates with kolene steels, and it seemed to take alot of the coating off the steel. the reds not so much.
 
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