build a 200-4R for 1,000 HP

[bison]

YOU are not listening.THE CURRENT 9 PACKS ARE USING 9 THIN STEELS AND A TRIMMED DOWN PRESSURE PLATE.THE STOCK TYPE 6.I AM USING 10 STOCK THICKNESS STEELS. THERE IS NO COMPARISON BETWEEN THE THIN AND THICK.THE THIN DOESNT WORK.WHY DONT YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?IT IS 66.666664 PERCENT MORE FRICTION MATERIAL.ITS VERY EASY TO CALCULATE. STOP WITH THE CLAMPING PSI.THERE IS PLENTLY THE DRUM IS IN NO WAY AS HEAVY AS A 400.440 DRUM EMPTY WITH SPRAG IS 10 LBS AND THE 2004R 5.3.WHY WOULD WE MAKE A BIGGER DRUM BEFORE MAXIMIZING THE STOCKER?WE WILL GET 1 IN BISONS CAR AND FIND OUT WHAT THE DEAL IS .JOHN CRAWFORD CALL ME I HAVE A BUNCH OF NEW PARTS FOR YOU TO TEST,NO CHARGE.

That S2 will be dialed up to about 1000hp. Im totally with you on the steel thickness Chris. Ill take 1 less direct clutch to be able to run thicker steels any day. The thinner the steels the quicker the heat soak unless you apply it quicker. Thin steels dont work too well when over 600 hp. Fwiw my direct has 6 frictions and thick steels with the billet apply piston. Over 100 ratio changes and still really quick and clean rpm drop on shifts. Its only about 680hp though . Line pressure at full TV is about 240psi. With the new drum and extra clutches with thick steels 1000hp doesnt seem to unrealistic to me. Still have room for more line pressure too.:biggrin: .

 

[Alky V6]

YOU are not listening.THE CURRENT 9 PACKS ARE USING 9 THIN STEELS AND A TRIMMED DOWN PRESSURE PLATE.THE STOCK TYPE 6.I AM USING 10 STOCK THICKNESS STEELS. THERE IS NO COMPARISON BETWEEN THE THIN AND THICK.THE THIN DOESNT WORK.WHY DONT YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?IT IS 66.666664 PERCENT MORE FRICTION MATERIAL.ITS VERY EASY TO CALCULATE. STOP WITH THE CLAMPING PSI.THERE IS PLENTLY THE DRUM IS IN NO WAY AS HEAVY AS A 400.440 DRUM EMPTY WITH SPRAG IS 10 LBS AND THE 2004R 5.3.WHY WOULD WE MAKE A BIGGER DRUM BEFORE MAXIMIZING THE STOCKER?WE WILL GET 1 IN BISONS CAR AND FIND OUT WHAT THE DEAL IS .JOHN CRAWFORD CALL ME I HAVE A BUNCH OF NEW PARTS FOR YOU TO TEST,NO CHARGE.

Chris. Calm down. What are you yelling for? I'm listening. You said thick steels in the previous post. I don't know how thick thick is. Now you say stock thickness. I still don't know which steel you're talking about. The forward steels are thinner than the stock high/rev steels, but you can use the forward steels in the high/rev. So which stock steels are you using in your setup? Forward or high/rev steels? There is a big difference between the two. If you're using the stock high/rev steels in this setup, then I applaud you. Which are they?

I have no argument with anyone on the fact that the thin steels and frictions are not acceptable for the power levels that people are commonly running these days. I had hoped that people came to that conclusion about me from all this information I've been churning out. The heat sink factor just is not there.

How did you come up with 66.666 percent? A 10 pack has 66.666 more friction area than a ? plate pack.

You're asking me why I don't understand why a thin plate doesn't work? You haven't been paying much attention to what I've been posting, obviously.

 

[Alky V6]

That S2 will be dialed up to about 1000hp. Im totally with you on the steel thickness Chris. Ill take 1 less direct clutch to be able to run thicker steels any day. The thinner the steels the quicker the heat soak unless you apply it quicker. Thin steels dont work too well when over 600 hp. Fwiw my direct has 6 frictions and thick steels with the billet apply piston. Over 100 ratio changes and still really quick and clean rpm drop on shifts. Its only about 680hp though . Line pressure at full TV is about 240psi. With the new drum and extra clutches with thick steels 1000hp doesnt seem to unrealistic to me. Still have room for more line pressure too.:biggrin: .

Yeah, you're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place with the high/rev clutch pack. Do I increase friction surface area and lower heat soaking capacity? Or, do I stick with a lower friction surface area and go with a higher heat soak capacity? The lower friction plate count can actually setup more slippage to where you really need that extra heat soaking capacity.

It's like looking at your brakes and saying, do I go with these smaller brake pads and larger rotor? Or, do I go with these larger pads with a smaller rotor? There's no good answer to that one.

 

[Alky V6]

Chris. It sounds like the piston and top pressure plate will do a good job of keeping the end friction plates of the pack cooler, but what about the middle? I'm guessing you're going to find some burnt clutches in the middle of the pack with good friction on two outer surfaces against your piston and pressure plate. I'm looking forward to hearing about some test results.

What kind of line pressure do you think you will need to run for your clutch setup at a 1000hp level?

 

[chris718]

im using stock 091 steels that come in the high drum or i can use 8 .101s with 8 disks.percentage explanation ,dont argue with it. 6 clutches make up 100 percent of the clutch pack,100 divided by 6 is 16.66.this means each disc equals 16.66 percent of the total clutch pack.each disc we add equates to an added 16.66 percent of the clutch pack 16.66 times 4 equals66.6666666664.my drum ADDS A HEAT SYNCH THAT IS .250 TO THE TOP OF THE PACK IN ADDITIONto (capsagain)the stock pressure plate.also this heat is channeled right in to the circumference of the drum ,not the stamping.ive accomplished both,increased clutch pack surface area and improved heat synch

 

[Alky V6]

im using stock 091 steels that come in the high drum or i can use 8 .101s with 8 disks.percentage explanation ,dont argue with it. 6 clutches make up 100 percent of the clutch pack,100 divided by 6 is 16.66.this means each disc equals 16.66 percent of the total clutch pack.each disc we add equates to an added 16.66 percent of the clutch pack 16.66 times 4 equals66.6666666664.my drum ADDS A HEAT SYNCH THAT IS .250 TO THE TOP OF THE PACK IN ADDITIONto (capsagain)the stock pressure plate.also this heat is channeled right in to the circumference of the drum ,not the stamping.ive accomplished both,increased clutch pack surface area and improved heat synch

Good for you. Working the .091s into the pack. That should help a lot.

Not arguing. Just didn't know which clutch pack size you were comparing the 10 pack to. I was too lazy to do the math.

So I gather your additional heat sink is not against the stock pressure plate. So there are how many frictions and steels between the extra heat sink and the stock pressure plate?

 

[chris718]

THE HEAT SYNCH/NEW UPPER PRESSURE PLATE is ground and screwed to the stock pressure plate with 8 machine screws,countersunk.i have not seen any issues with the center of the clutch pack as of yet.pack is 10 091 steels and 10 clutches

 

[Alky V6]

Good luck with it.

 

[bison]

Yeah, you're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place with the high/rev clutch pack. Do I increase friction surface area and lower heat soaking capacity? Or, do I stick with a lower friction surface area and go with a higher heat soak capacity? The lower friction plate count can actually setup more slippage to where you really need that extra heat soaking capacity.

It's like looking at your brakes and saying, do I go with these smaller brake pads and larger rotor? Or, do I go with these larger pads with a smaller rotor? There's no good answer to that one.

My testing indicates that its better to run .091 steels with grooved red clutches vs more clutches and thinner steels at least up to 250psi line. With the stamped steel plate on top ive noticed hot spotting and wear on the top friction plate facing the stamped pressure plate. Im sure even with the aluminum piston you still get some deflection at the stamped pressure plate and retaining ring from the abrupt apply of the clutch pack. The bottom frictions have looked really good with the aluminum piston where they were not previously. The new setup Chris has in the works should alleviate the deflection at the top.

 

[summit]

Seems pretty funny for guys who are trying to get 1000 hp out of a six cylinder instead of a bigger cubic inch 8 cylinder are arguing how crazy it is to use a 2004R instead of a 400. Don reminds me of Bruce Plecan who would argue to no end about theories and test benches.

One benefit I see to the crazy guys insisting they need an overdrive in their 1000 HP race car is that R and D helps the guy with only 600 horsepower who really can benefit from an overdrive in his car. I gave up way back in the day when Kurtz was refreshing mine every year for my only car that was driven to work during the week and ran 11.0 on weekends. Now I could daily drive a 10 second car reliably and depend on the 9 second guys to do the research to make the trans better. In another 10 years maybe a 9 second trans is no big deal and the 8 second guys are doing the research.

 

[quickt]

Could someone point out the facts about how the output shaft is being twisted by the direct/rev clutch???? I guess I missed it.

Wonder if coming off the T-Brake with a big set of slicks counts as spike loading?

 

[quickt]

Ooops another question. Could someone please explain how we are killing the direct clutch with thick or thin or any steel for that matter in one shift made under full power at a race track. No need to explain in a road race application I do understand that one.

I also see that it has been explained as to how the clutch creates heat but no one has explained how the clutch helps to dissipate the heat. Wonder if a clutch that holds more fluid similar to a sponge so when it is engaged the fluid is squeezed out on the steel to help remove heat would help anything?

 

[Alky V6]

Seems pretty funny for guys who are trying to get 1000 hp out of a six cylinder instead of a bigger cubic inch 8 cylinder are arguing how crazy it is to use a 2004R instead of a 400. Don reminds me of Bruce Plecan who would argue to no end about theories and test benches.

One benefit I see to the crazy guys insisting they need an overdrive in their 1000 HP race car is that R and D helps the guy with only 600 horsepower who really can benefit from an overdrive in his car. I gave up way back in the day when Kurtz was refreshing mine every year for my only car that was driven to work during the week and ran 11.0 on weekends. Now I could daily drive a 10 second car reliably and depend on the 9 second guys to do the research to make the trans better. In another 10 years maybe a 9 second trans is no big deal and the 8 second guys are doing the research.

I don't know who Bruce Plecan is, but I wonder if he ever had any real world experience with what he supposedly theorized about, as you put it. I have been rebuilding transmissions since the mid 80s. I was there when the first wave of 200-4Rs were coming across benches for their first rebuild. I've done my own research on the 200-4R to strengthen them for HP use. I've seen what the limits of these units are. So I have a little more than blind theorizing and examples based on concrete laws of physics to back up my statements. If anyone has a problem with anything I've explained, please speak up and we can talk about it.

I recognized a long time ago that the direct clutch would be a major limiting factor for the 200-4R for anything over 700hp. Less than 700hp if you're hoping to get some decent reliability out of the unit. That was over 5 years ago. When you've worked with auto transmissions long enough you learn to recognize the limits. Five years ago some were claiming their 200-4Rs could handle 1,000hp. BS! I have nothing against people spending time and resources to come up with solutions to make a 200-4R or any other transmission for that matter stronger. What does push my button is when someone claims that their unit can do something that with todays technology it clearly cannot. That is false advertising that is meant only to take money from uneducated clients. That is what I'm about. I hope to educate some so that they can make a more educated decision. I can't understand why some would hold that against me. Except maybe those that are making good money selling 1,000hp 200-4Rs.

 

[Alky V6]

Could someone point out the facts about how the output shaft is being twisted by the direct/rev clutch???? I guess I missed it.

Wonder if coming off the T-Brake with a big set of slicks counts as spike loading?

Read post #125

 

[Alky V6]

Ooops another question. Could someone please explain how we are killing the direct clutch with thick or thin or any steel for that matter in one shift made under full power at a race track. No need to explain in a road race application I do understand that one.

I also see that it has been explained as to how the clutch creates heat but no one has explained how the clutch helps to dissipate the heat. Wonder if a clutch that holds more fluid similar to a sponge so when it is engaged the fluid is squeezed out on the steel to help remove heat would help anything?

Chris brought up that point already about the fluid helping to cool the clutch pack. Other means that help to cool the pack were already covered. If fluid was the only thing that was used to cool the pack, we'd never have to worry about an undersized clutch pack burning up.

Please explain more about your question of burning the direct with one full power shift. Did you have a situation that made you bring up that question? Tell us about the situation.

 

[quickt]

Chris brought up that point already about the fluid helping to cool the clutch pack. Other means that help to cool the pack were already covered. If fluid was the only thing that was used to cool the pack, we'd never have to worry about an undersized clutch pack burning up.

Please explain more about your question of burning the direct with one full power shift. Did you have a situation that made you bring up that question? Tell us about the situation.

No situation here. As I have stated I have not had a direct clutch failure in many years. Your statement above that fluid is only one of other means used to cool a clutch pack is incorrect. Its the only way to remove heat from a steel. To shorten the apply time only helps to generate less heat so I guess I would accept that could be one method. The same size clutch with a better lining alone will remove more heat.

Ok Don I will give it my best shot. Sorry if you do not agree but this is fact. If needed I can print you a much more detailed explanation from a GM principals of operation manual.

The clutch lining holds oil (kind like a sponge) that is used to disperse heat. Sooo if the clutch does not hold enough oil on the shift the heat that was generated will still be present to some degree. This will start to cause the clutches to glaze loosing their ability to retain and release fluid so the clutches ability to disperse heat is now even more reduced. The more the clutch glazes the less fluid is retained the more heat will be generated till the clutch looses its holding capacity and of course it will fail. The thicker steel will help this problem to a degree. It will slow the heating process. Its still the clutches ability to retain a sufficient amount of oil that is the radiator of sorts not the steels alone. Just using a clutch material that will hold more oil will disperse more heat. I can see where the thin steels in a road race application where shift cycling 2-3 3-2 Etc. can build heat that cannot be removed quick enough before the next shift cycle. In this case thicker steels is much better option. In a drag racing application or typical street application where there is not a lot of shift cycling thinner clutches and steels to increase the capacity can work very well. The drum that Chris is working on would be the best of both worlds.

 

[quickt]

If you'd like to know why you're now twisting output shafts with your 6 pack direct that lives so well in the 9s, I'm willing to explain it to you, if you'd like.

156 post later you still did not give one fact that you can prove that this statement is true.

 

[quickt]

I don't know who Bruce Plecan is, but I wonder if he ever had any real world experience with what he supposedly theorized about, as you put it. I have been rebuilding transmissions since the mid 80s. I was there when the first wave of 200-4Rs were coming across benches for their first rebuild. I've done my own research on the 200-4R to strengthen them for HP use. I've seen what the limits of these units are. So I have a little more than blind theorizing and examples based on concrete laws of physics to back up my statements. If anyone has a problem with anything I've explained, please speak up and we can talk about it.

I recognized a long time ago that the direct clutch would be a major limiting factor for the 200-4R for anything over 700hp. Less than 700hp if you're hoping to get some decent reliability out of the unit. That was over 5 years ago. When you've worked with auto transmissions long enough you learn to recognize the limits. Five years ago some were claiming their 200-4Rs could handle 1,000hp. BS! I have nothing against people spending time and resources to come up with solutions to make a 200-4R or any other transmission for that matter stronger. What does push my button is when someone claims that their unit can do something that with todays technology it clearly cannot. That is false advertising that is meant only to take money from uneducated clients. That is what I'm about. I hope to educate some so that they can make a more educated decision. I can't understand why some would hold that against me. Except maybe those that are making good money selling 1,000hp 200-4Rs.

I think the only person who claimed 1000HP was Art Carr. It was not me or any of the other guys I have seen post on this board. It was said that the 2004R might do it once. It has been proven that the 200 can handle 800HP there people on this board that do it. It seems to me that you have an agenda or underlying smoke screen is discredit honest builders who spend much of their time and hard earned money to develop a better mouse trap. Just because you could not or would not do it does not mean it cannot be done. The proof is in the pudding you just choose not to see it.

 

[Alky V6]

156 post later you still did not give one fact that you can prove that this statement is true.

Let's explore that then. Before I can give you a suggestion, let's get some information about the circumstances of the failure.

At what performance level were you not seeing output shafts break?
What was different from that performance level to when you started to commonly see output shafts twisting? What is the performance level where the outputs are twisting?
What clutch pack capacities were you using in each case? You made that a little unclear when you first acted like you were still using 6 packs, but then claimed you hadn't used 6 packs for awhile now.
What line pressures were you using in each above case?
Was a transbrake being used in each case? What about foot breaking in either case?
How long had the transmission been used for racing before the output shaft twisted? Was it a fresh core or did the unit have years of racing time on it?

Let's start with that. Depending on your answers, I may have more questions. We'll try to get to the bottom of this for you.

 

[Alky V6]

I think the only person who claimed 1000HP was Art Carr. It was not me or any of the other guys I have seen post on this board. It was said that the 2004R might do it once. It has been proven that the 200 can handle 800HP there people on this board that do it. It seems to me that you have an agenda or underlying smoke screen is discredit honest builders who spend much of their time and hard earned money to develop a better mouse trap. Just because you could not or would not do it does not mean it cannot be done. The proof is in the pudding you just choose not to see it.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Everything I've posted is the truth and is how I truly feel. You seem to look at me as a competitor. Maybe that is how you're coming to your conclusions. I have no interest in taking work from anyone. I do still build 200-4Rs for those that want me to. But, I have no ambitions of pushing the 200-4R to its limits. I'm past that stage in my career. It gets old when people expect you to support their racing endeavors. I can barely afford my own, let alone someone elses too. Hey, you want to push the 200-4R beyond limits, have at it. I will sit back and enjoy watching. Someone comes up with something that will increase durability, GREAT! I'll most likely buy parts from you then. I have been known to buy some parts from Chris. That may surprise you.
If you want to act like the top dog here, I'll be the last person to get in your way. If you want some suggestions about problems you're having with a transmission, I'll be the first to give you a hand. If you bother to ask me without the attitude.