Bad news upon pulling motor today

[KevinB]

so how fast did you go ??? How did you figure out it was the alky blowing it up ?? How fast did ya go after ya canned the alky ?? weird how some people can use it without problems

He went 137 first time down the tracking when issues developed. It made almost 700 at the wheels on 116 and alky at 10. Car blew head apart, I fixed it but pistons were hurt. Car was nursed down the track at bg and having like 30 psi in #1 and #2 it went almost 139. 6765 ths setup. There were a ton of people under the Hartline tent that witnessed all this. Car still was the runnerup in ths with a 17 car field. His car has the best of the best on it including a Cal tune and a rpe engine. This shouldn't have happened but you live and learn and try to warn others.
In bg car melted down spark plugs in he front. After felt was added up there problem solved. This means the front was going lean. Car has champion intake and rails so can't blame it on stock fuel rail.

 

[Grumpy]

He went 137 first time down the tracking when issues developed. It made almost 700 at the wheels on 116 and alky at 10. Car blew head apart, I fixed it but pistons were hurt. Car was nursed down the track at bg and having like 30 psi in #1 and #2 it went almost 139. 6765 ths setup. There were a ton of people under the Hartline tent that witnessed all this. Car still was the runnerup in ths with a 17 car field. His car has the best of the best on it including a Cal tune and a rpe engine. This shouldn't have happened but you live and learn and try to warn others.

ok...so he is fixing it now ?? Why run alky with 116

 

[Mr.Spool]

interesting thread without a doubt.i personally haven't made enough power to test the distribution limits of the motor,curently a 6.8 1/8 at 22 psi.but running pump gas alky is alot of fun and the system has been trouble free.i do monitor and watch things and make small changes.now i put a kit on a relatives car and gave him a very conservative tune anticipating his ingnorance.he never looks at the gauges,barely even checks the alky tank levels but wants to go fasterit sounds like in this case the boost went sky high fast causing bad things to happen,unfortunate but repairable.really can't blame the fuel,just alot of boost.

 

[Reggie West]

If you are seeing leaned out cylinders why are you not correcting that with individual cylinder control? This car has an XFI unit does it not?

 

[larrym]

Some JB quick weld should fix this right up...

Thats ugly sorry about your luck

 

[KevinB]

If you are seeing leaned out cylinders why are you not correcting that with individual cylinder control? This car has an XFI unit does it not?

That's what I meant when I said they added fuel to the front cylinders. It was a little too late though.

I'm done polluting Brian's thread. In the end, my opinion is that alky is great for an octane booster. But be careful when your car is 10.5's or quicker. And that 10.5 is all relative. A 109 running 10.5s or 9s is being pushed hard. A stage 2 running the same times with a 70+ turbo is not being pushed as hard.

 

[Alky V6]

Another clue, guys. Methanol is very temperature sensitive. Once a certain temperature has been reached in the cylinder, methanol will autoignite all at once. That's why preignition with methanol is so damaging.
The cylinder temps and combustion temps of a straight methanol engine are much lower than that of a gasoline engine. Evidenced by the differing exhaust temps of the two engines.
Temperature control during compression and combustion are key with methanol.
If methanol is pushed to the edge, you don't want anything in that cylinder that might push the charge to autoignition. What is usually the hottest part in a cylinder under high load? The spark plug GROUND ELECTRODE!
Those that are pushing their engine hard and are still using projected nose spark plugs with their long ground electrodes are asking for it. Are begging for it. A glowing ground electrode is all it takes to push methanol over the edge.

I did start out using NGKs that were regular gap with a somewhat cutback ground electrode. NGK is a preferred plug with methanol. If I strayed to a certain lean a/f ratio, I could count on damaging a spark plug. The plug would be removed with the ground electrode melted half the way back. Due to my parts, I was lucky not to have any further damage.
I switched to a different plug. This new one has a fatter and much more extreme cutback of the ground electrode. You would not believe what I've been lucky enough to get away with when the fueling would accidently go too lean. And in a quarter mile run, too. The a/f meter bouncing off a 14.64 reading for a time. Absolutely no damage. Absolutely amazing. I am completely sold on these new plugs I'm using.
Turns out that with the old plugs, that had much shorter ground electrodes than a projected nose plug, the ground electrode was a fuse to a bomb aching to go off.
In my sig is a PB run where the a/f mixture went lean due to a fuel delivery problem, bouncing off 14.64:1 for a full 2 seconds at the end of the pass. You can hear the engine surging in the video. Even the spark plugs came out of it looking fine.

 

[Pronto]

Is that style "G" in this chart?
NGK.com

 

[bison]

If you are seeing leaned out cylinders why are you not correcting that with individual cylinder control? This car has an XFI unit does it not?

Correcting why it's lean or rich on specific cylinders is the preferred method. Besides that you need to know what cylinders and how much to add/subtract.

 

[quickt]

Yeah, what he said........I think..


After reading all this I wonder how some of us have made it all this time.....:biggrin:

Some darn good info for those running higher than normal compression and lord knows what boost. But for a lot of
us stock block not on the ragged edge guys alky has been a real effective low cost way to run boost.

Alky is very effective tool. If you use it like I think it was intended you will love it.

The cases outlined here including my case the engines are making big power for the combo and we were quite honestly greedy. We wanted every pony we could get. Good sense goes out the window and testosterone levels skyrocket when you see that dyno graph start to make that climb into 700+ range when you were expecting 600. End of the day it cost me a lots of time and money and more importantly tested my customers confidence. Lesson learned. I shared my experience so someone else will not make the same mistake I did. Not to question the effectiveness of alky. That was never the intention.

The majority of guys use good sense and get great results.

 

[Alky V6]

Lonnie is right. Methanol injection used with gasoline as a combustion coolant should not become a major part of the tuneup. If you really want to run a lot of methanol, switch to straight methanol. Believe me, you will be hooked for life. Nothing beats 135+ octane.

The plug I use now is pictured in a recent thread in the Stage II section. Spark Plugs, I believe is the title.

edit: Here's the link: http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/stage-ii-tech/347724-spark-plugs.html#post2789023

 

[SloGN]

Another clue, guys. Methanol is very temperature sensitive. Once a certain temperature has been reached in the cylinder, methanol will autoignite all at once. That's why preignition with methanol is so damaging.
The cylinder temps and combustion temps of a straight methanol engine are much lower than that of a gasoline engine. Evidenced by the differing exhaust temps of the two engines.
Temperature control during compression and combustion are key with methanol.
If methanol is pushed to the edge, you don't want anything in that cylinder that might push the charge to autoignition. What is usually the hottest part in a cylinder under high load? The spark plug GROUND ELECTRODE!
Those that are pushing their engine hard and are still using projected nose spark plugs with their long ground electrodes are asking for it. Are begging for it. A glowing ground electrode is all it takes to push methanol over the edge.


I did start out using NGKs that were regular gap with a somewhat cutback ground electrode. NGK is a preferred plug with methanol. If I strayed to a certain lean a/f ratio, I could count on damaging a spark plug. The plug would be removed with the ground electrode melted half the way back. Due to my parts, I was lucky not to have any further damage.
I switched to a different plug. This new one has a fatter and much more extreme cutback of the ground electrode. You would not believe what I've been lucky enough to get away with when the fueling would accidently go too lean. And in a quarter mile run, too. The a/f meter bouncing off a 14.64 reading for a time. Absolutely no damage. Absolutely amazing. I am completely sold on these new plugs I'm using.
Turns out that with the old plugs, that had much shorter ground electrodes than a projected nose plug, the ground electrode was a fuse to a bomb aching to go off.
In my sig is a PB run where the a/f mixture went lean due to a fuel delivery problem, bouncing off 14.64:1 for a full 2 seconds at the end of the pass. You can hear the engine surging in the video. Even the spark plugs came out of it looking fine.

Well knowing that tid bit of info makes ya wonder how come the methanol don't preignite when used as supplement on top of gasoline due to the fact gasoline burns hotter from the start.


Also how does the burning of methanol and gasoline relate to the actual A/F numbers the wideband is spitting out since those 2 fuels have a completely different stoich.

 

[Phoneguy]

If you are seeing leaned out cylinders why are you not correcting that with individual cylinder control? This car has an XFI unit does it not?

Yes it has an XFI , if I had seen a lean condition don't you think it would have been addressed.
Ran great in NC, then boost off the charts.

 

[Alky V6]

The plugs in this picture. Don't tell me. Are those projected nose?

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/en...s-upon-pulling-motor-today-3.html#post2790977

How about a closeup picture of the ground electrode from the failed cylinder.

 

[Alky V6]

Well knowing that tid bit of info makes ya wonder how come the methanol don't preignite when used as supplement on top of gasoline due to the fact gasoline burns hotter from the start.


Also how does the burning of methanol and gasoline relate to the actual A/F numbers the wideband is spitting out since those 2 fuels have a completely different stoich.

The temperature that methanol dissociates is not too far off from the autoignition temperature of the fuel. Like I stated, it's all about compression and combustion temperature control with methanol.

Look at the preignition temperatures of gasoline compared to methanol. Gasoline does burn hotter than methanol AFTER the start of combustion. After the spark event. Preignition is a condition that occurs before a spark event.
If after a spark event the temperature of the charge is such that all the methanol has already dissociated and done what it could do to cool the charge and the start of the combustion process, then that becomes a dangerous situation. You want to have some methanol still pre-dissociated during the combustion process to help cool the combustion process itself and maintain combustion temperature control.
Once methanol dissociates, you have carbon monoxide and HYDROGEN! If there is a lot of hydrogen in the charge with little methanol to help control combustion temps, well, you know.

 

[Alky V6]

Well knowing that tid bit of info makes ya wonder how come the methanol don't preignite when used as supplement on top of gasoline due to the fact gasoline burns hotter from the start.


Also how does the burning of methanol and gasoline relate to the actual A/F numbers the wideband is spitting out since those 2 fuels have a completely different stoich.

To answer your last question.
I use an a/f meter (wideband) that is calibrated to readout gasoline numbers. You have to remember that an O2 sensor is only reading stray oxygen molecules after combustion. It doesn't care what the fuel was or its true stoich ratio. It's just looking for stray oxygen. The amount of stray oxygen after the combustion of any fuel is very similar. Even if burning nitro.
I use my meter using the readout numbers as if I were burning gasoline.
A good full power target ratio for me is 10.8-11.3:1. A good idle ratio is 11.8-13.3:1. Any leaner than that at idle and I have coolant temp problems. I do now run an electric fan, but my grill is completely blocked off. I use the a/f ratio at idle to help with engine temperature control.
A good cruise a/f ratio is 12.8-13.3:1.
You see. It's not too much different than the numbers you would shoot for with straight gasoline. A little richer at idle and cruise, strictly for temperature control.

 

[Alky V6]

The temperature that methanol dissociates is not too far off from the autoignition temperature of the fuel. Like I stated, it's all about compression and combustion temperature control with methanol.

Look at the preignition temperatures of gasoline compared to methanol. Gasoline does burn hotter than methanol AFTER the start of combustion. After the spark event. Preignition is a condition that occurs before a spark event.
If after a spark event the temperature of the charge is such that all the methanol has already dissociated and done what it could do to cool the charge and the start of the combustion process, then that becomes a dangerous situation. You want to have some methanol still pre-dissociated during the combustion process to help cool the combustion process itself and maintain combustion temperature control.
Once methanol dissociates, you have carbon monoxide and HYDROGEN! If there is a lot of hydrogen in the charge with little methanol to help control combustion temps, well, you know.

To expand on this point. When you are burning gasoline, compression and combustion temps are running in a higher temperature bracket compared to a straight methanol engine.
In a gasoline/methanol mix, the methanol is used to cool the charge during compression and combustion. But remember, temperatures are working in a bracket that is higher than a typical methanol engine. There comes a point where the temps will be too high for the methanol to control to a safe level, because the gasoline just insists on burning at that higher level. That's where the power is with that fueling combination. And hence, the temptation.

 

[Detomaso71]

Brian if your not gonna be hitting track hard and stay at 20 or less boost you can JB the block and fix the heads for 200 and drive it

thats what I did for awhile otherwise you gotta take it all apart and redo the engine etc weld and mill block so if thats not in the bidget right now the car would still be able to be enjoyed for summer and you could re do over winter or not if runs well

if you do this you better get the boost issue settled though so it doesnt over boost again


my block was JB welded when I raced in BG with melted pistons and rings but i wanted to race it so I did

 

[Detomaso71]

also if your sytem can flow the fuel may be cheaper for e85, I am selling Alky and going e85
same price as 93 and no worries

 

[lazaris]

"[/QUOTE] I did start out using NGKs that were regular gap with a somewhat cutback ground electrode. NGK is a preferred plug with methanol. If I strayed to a certain lean a/f ratio, I could count on damaging a spark plug. The plug would be removed with the ground electrode melted half the way back. Due to my parts, I was lucky not to have any further damage.
I switched to a different plug. This new one has a fatter and much more extreme cutback of the ground electrode. You would not believe what I've been lucky enough to get away with when the fueling would accidently go too lean. And in a quarter mile run, too. The a/f meter bouncing off a 14.64 reading for a time. Absolutely no damage. Absolutely amazing. I am completely sold on these new plugs I'm using.
Turns out that with the old plugs, that had much shorter ground electrodes than a projected nose plug, the ground electrode was a fuse to a bomb aching to go off.
In my sig is a PB run where the a/f mixture went lean due to a fuel delivery problem, bouncing off 14.64:1 for a full 2 seconds at the end of the pass. You can hear the engine surging in the video. Even the spark plugs came out of it looking fine. [/QUOTE]"

The problem with using a beefier ground strap plug is that when you do get in trouble with your tune up, the plug does not melt as easy as an NGK. Better to have it show up sooner on an NGK and know the tune up is off and fix it rather than continue to soften up the aluminum of the piston.