Bad news upon pulling motor today

[Phoneguy]

If the intake air temp going over the nozzle is "hot" enough to make the alcohol flash.. then you dont have the issue. Alcohol will flash at 70 DF. If the air going over the nozzle is at least 70 DF.. the alcohol will flash into the air and distribute just like air does.

Example is like brake cleaner hitting a hot rotor.. its gone. If the volume of alcohol is so great that its oversaturating the air.. then we have an issue.

This is why rule of thumb 20-25% of the fueling will get the job done and no issues. Plenty of low 10 sec cars running pump gas and meth no problems. Even some 9 second ones. :wink:

Want to see some XFI logs?

Now.. all this has nothing to do with the damage to the motor Bryan had. He pegged a big turbo due to a faulty boost controller. So all this alky does this/that is hogwash as it pertains to this thread. C16 would not have saved his motor at those boost levels.

If the question is distribution of methanol injection when the fuel displacement/volume starts going past 30-40% displacement.. thats a totally different issue. Then we can start to discuss direct port on that 1200 hp motor.

So if a car with a Buick V6 motor can run in the mid 9's on pump gas and alcohol injection.. that proves the tech works. If it didnt work... then every attempt would be a failure. Its all in the tuning and attention. Dyno's are a tuning aid.. the best advice always comes from those who are methodical about what they're doing and moving in that direction in a slow but sure pace.. I would never set a car on kill on a dyno then expect it to be perfect at the track..

Julio, what happens when temps are below 70* ? My log shows 62* did the meth stay liquid and go to the rear cylinders?

 

[Alky V6]

I port inject methanol.
If the engine coolant temp is under 150 degrees, it will affect fuel fallout IN THE INTAKE RUNNER. A quick blip of the throttle will show how lean the engine is by stumbling as if an accelerator pump was not delivering enough.
As soon as 150 degrees F is read on the coolant temperature gauge, the problem goes away. The engine will rev as expected.

I can only imagine what must be happening in a plenum that is at the kind of low temps that have been mentioned with a simple single or dual nozzle being injected at the up pipe and being expected to make the turns it has to and still maintain equal distribution? Not likely to happen.

A methanol engine that is warming up will need extra fueling to make up for the fallout occurring and resulting lean condition. The problem is, the more methanol you add to try to make up for this condition, the more cooling that occurs and the more fallout, and on, and on, and on it goes. If the fallout affects fuel distribution to cylinders,... Yikes.

 

[John Wilde]

Don, I think you might have some people following your lead on that.
I will have to do a search to read more on that set up.

 

[Alky V6]

A methanol engine that is warming up will need extra fueling to make up for the fallout occurring and resulting lean condition. The problem is, the more methanol you add to try to make up for this condition, the more cooling that occurs and the more fallout, and on, and on, and on it goes. If the fallout affects fuel distribution to cylinders,... Yikes.

I've tested this statement with my own engine during a warmup routine by increasing the acceleration enrichment to try and eliminate a lean stumble when blipping the throttle. It did nothing to help it. I can't recall it getting worse, but it did nothing to help it.
As soon as the coolant temp gauge reaches 150 degrees F it's like a light switch flipped. The stumble is no more. It's that drastic a change. And remember, I'm port injecting the stuff.
It's interesting to learn that a typical injected blown alcohol engine will prefer an intake air temperature of just at or a little over 160 degrees F. This is after the blower and hat section injection, at the start of the run.
I try to warm up my engine to 150 degrees F coolant temp before the burnout, and 180-190 degrees F coolant temp by the time I leave the line. That is when the engine runs the strongest.

 

[Alky V6]

The preferred intake air temp range for an injected blown alcohol engine is narrow, though. And that type engine typically only has the intake manifold itself to help keep the intake charge in the range. Of course, the intake manifold quickly heat soaks, and the fueling is typically, but not always leaned on the top end to keep a good power mixture due to the intake air turning less dense by the end of the run. If I remember right, the upper end of the preferred range is around 210 degrees F. A very narrow range.

I hope some of this might give some of you an insight into what might be happening with your gasoline/methanol mixes. Good luck.

 

[Alky V6]

An interesting quote from a book I have. "Methanol and other alcohols do not respond well to lead octane improvers."

 

[Alky V6]

I know years ago I had posted that I had read in a book somewhere that warned that with high percentages of methanol to gasoline, the propensity for detonation actually increased. It looks like some of you are finding that out the hard way.

 

[Pronto]

I am no where near the level you guys are at HP or knowledge wise but I'll run 25psi on my TE44 with my recipe car down to mid 11's this year for 20 passes or more and on the street another 10k miles. 65k miles with an SMC kit and no HG issues and now with Razor's kit and a home head port, it's a mean street car that doesn't need drag radials all the time. I run a power plate too and have never seen anything with my plugs that would indicate uneven fire. I change them every year and put 10k miles on my car and run at least 7+ gallons of meth through every year. For a true street car (no drag radials even though it's WAY more fun), alky is great. And I am the guy who runs modest timing at 20psi and is just trying to get the most out of pump gas, which alky is great for. Race gas kills O2 sensors and what would the fuel bill be for 10k miles per year? 10,000/20mpg=500*7.99/gal (NOT C16)=almost $4000/year in fuel. Gas @ $4 = $2000/year + $21 (7 gallons of meth) = BIG SAVINGS for us drivers out there. If my car was only track run, I'd run C16, one less pump to worry about. But if it runs on the street, it's ready to run on the strip too.

Same here but I don't drive as much.:redface: Have many friends that also use alky with no issues.
Like we4Mateo, I am no expert but the way I see it is there seems to be a point where very fast street car (that are really race cars) become timebombs. Something somewhere is going to fail. When it does there is carnage no matter what fuel, forged steel or brand of parts are used. The game is to have the least chance of an issue. IMHO race gas would be a stable factor rather than spraying alky in a 9 second or faster car. Since I have no experience with that I am just thinking you would want to limit the unknowns, but that debate is for the big boys.

 

[TurboBuRick]

It sucks that happed. Was it aklys fault? Guess something has to take the blame. Right? Now that everyone has re assured your suspicions, you can rest easy knowing you have the root of the problem pinpointed. :tongue:

Chapter 2 coming soon.

 

[SloGN]

Donnie


Thanks for the great info up above. You have basically answered some questions that i have had over the yrs. But will continue to research it more and more.

 

[Grumpy]

It sucks that happed. Was it aklys fault? Guess something has to take the blame. Right? Now that everyone has re assured your suspicions, you can rest easy knowing you have the root of the problem pinpointed. :tongue:

Chapter 2 coming soon.

You DO know Buicks have NEVER blown up before Alky came about

 

[chops]

Funny you say that grumpy I've heard to many times about alky just last week my friend blew head gaskets do to his alky my other friend went to the track at 23psi w/ alky and was detanating in 3 he shut the alky off the next run put 116 in and the car did amazing lon story short alky was ripped out when we got home and this coming from you grumpy with your knowlege and exp my car is never going to see what alky looks like ::::

 

[SGRIM]

You DO know Buicks have NEVER blown up before Alky came about

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


People trying to use alky as a magic cure all for all the other parts needed to go fast gives alky a bad name. Use it for what it is designed for and you will really see the BENEFITS of adding it to your set up. I look at is as a additional safety precaution more than the workhorse of the setup. In other words don't think of it as going from a stock turbo to a 62mm:biggrin:

 

[Grumpy]

People trying to use alky as a magic cure all for all the other parts needed to go fast gives alky a bad name. Use it for what it is designed for and you will really see the BENEFITS of adding it to your set up. I look at is as a additional safety precaution more than the workhorse of the setup. In other words don't think of it as going from a stock turbo to a 62mm:biggrin:

just erased my reply.. getting to far off topic in Bryans thread Guess Ill have to stir up the Alky section :biggrin:

 

[V6RACER]

spray the house down

ROTFLMAO... :biggrin:

 

[quickt]

You DO know Buicks have NEVER blown up before Alky came about

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!

Bryan get your car fixed. Buy a boost controller. Be conservative with your alky street tune. Life will be good for ya.

 

[Sweet6]

I think I am the only one running one. No headgasket issues or burnt up plugs. I would like to see others input about it. We don't do dyno's either. Could it be something in the "Fast" system ?? We are still on a chip with a maf.

I pulled the heads off both of my cars that ran high 10s on 93and alky. The front 2 cylinders looked great. No signs of being lean. Granted I did not do a lot of 10 second runs either. But I have thought about using the alky with race gas at the track just for added insurance. Or go E85 and Alky.


Brian,
Sorry to hear about your engine problems though.

 

[Detomaso71]

DeJa Vu

Exact same thing happened to me with a perfect tune (fat) and no boost spike on 116 octane.
For my stock engine didn't flow enough air for etoh to matter.
Once you got a nice set up to flow air alky is a time bomb IMO.

My alky kit costed me 4 races and thousands of dollars so far.

 

[rmar]

Exact same thing happened to me with a perfect tune (fat) and no boost spike on 116 octane.
For my stock engine didn't flow enough air for etoh to matter.
Once you got a nice set up to flow air alky is a time bomb IMO.

My alky kit costed me 4 races and thousands of dollars so far.

Yeah, what he said........I think..


After reading all this I wonder how some of us have made it all this time.....:biggrin:

Some darn good info for those running higher than normal compression and lord knows what boost. But for a lot of
us stock block not on the ragged edge guys alky has been a real effective low cost way to run boost.

 

[Grumpy]

Exact same thing happened to me with a perfect tune (fat) and no boost spike on 116 octane.
For my stock engine didn't flow enough air for etoh to matter.
Once you got a nice set up to flow air alky is a time bomb IMO.

My alky kit costed me 4 races and thousands of dollars so far.

so how fast did you go ??? How did you figure out it was the alky blowing it up ?? How fast did ya go after ya canned the alky ?? weird how some people can use it without problems