Bad news upon pulling motor today

[Alky V6]

If I'm making a nuisance of myself, please let me know. I'm just trying to share information that I feel will save a lot of you a lot of money.

Back when I was in high school, dang, almost 40 years ago, when I was terrorizing the streets with my 68 Chevelle, n/a 12.5:1 307 SBC, mixing 50/50 avgas and pump gas, pissing off the large V8s, yes even back then I was the underdog, even then I understood the advantages of running a regular nose, short cutback ground electrode. I remember sitting in my garage cutting back my own ground electrodes and filing them to a sharp edge. This was a trick that was very well known on the streets back then. I remember changing in a fresh set of plugs on a side street when meeting at the favorite 'street', Ruffin Road. No one would believe I was running a 307.

Now, people are thinking they can get away with running a boosted engine on the edge of the fuels capabilities with projected nose spark plugs? What's the deal? Is Hot Rod magazine not doing a good enough job of educating the new hot rodders these days?

 

[SloGN]

If I'm making a nuisance of myself, please let me know. I'm just trying to share information that I feel will save a lot of you a lot of money.

Your not making a nuissance of yourself donnie. I for one really appreciate the info that one can give.


It seems that alot of knowledgeable folks on here has quit posting over the yrs due to other people ripping them apart for the info they share. Then those same folks simply just stopping contributing any info.


Again thank you.

 

[SS/GN]

Donnie interesting finds on the plugs,what kind do you like better than NGK's??

 

[lazaris]

After years of running NGKs and monitoring them in my engine, I have learned that my base tune which is now very tight, needs little to no changes at the few tracks that I've been to. I run the fueling and the timing both with a little safety cushion. I've found that the ground strap with the NGKs was not offering any useful information anymore. The plating on the other hand still does give me good clues. I made the decision to remove the NGKs because of the problems that were occurring with them that other monitoring methods were also able to warn me of. This was shown to me more than just a few times. There was no good reason to have two monitoring methods telling me the same thing, especially when one of the methods was a deadly fuse in my combustion chamber.
I know I have already eluded to this before, but I'll state this again. Since switching to the different plugs, I have been through situations that I am sure would have resulted in at least a blown up porcelain with the NGKs which would have forced me to pull the motor, dig the porcelain off the chamber and piston surfaces, and between the valves and valve seats, and maybe even replace the turbine wheel of the turbo. BEEN THERE, DONE THAT with the NGKs. The new plugs have taken the punishment much, much better. I'm not talking theoretical here, the proof is in the pudding. With the extreme luck I've been having with these plugs I will not switch back to NGKs, unless I get the itch to experiment with new timing settings. The timing table is set, it works well at the few tracks and different altitudes I've been to, and that's that.
I know the true blue NGK fans out there are having a hissy fit over my switching, but let me add just one more thing, my engine is still together and running like a champ. She is past due for a PMing, but she's hanging in there just fine, and I attribute much of that to the fact that these new plugs have not forced me to have to pull the engine any sooner.

Lazaris, you are more than welcome to keep running the plugs you're using. You will not talk me into switching back to the nightmare. I hope you don't use long ground electrodes with nitrous, too.

I'm not trying to talk you into anything. I was just sharing for others that melting electrodes as you have had happen would not be as obvious with a more robust ground strapped plug.
Hence the tune not being on target and catching it earlier than it would with a different plug.
I do not use nitrous as I have no need for it.
Most nitrous cars I know of use NGK's with great success.
To each his own.

 

[Alky V6]

Donnie interesting finds on the plugs,what kind do you like better than NGK's??

What I searched for to replace the NGKs I was using, was a plug that had a regular nose and had the shortest ground electrode I could find. I was even ready to go to a surface discharge or retracted gap plug, if I could find them. The make didn't make any difference to me, except it had to be a silvery plated plug. Not black like AC or some Autolite plugs. And, they had to be cold, cold. Burning alcohol, you don't have to worry about fouling so you just get the coldest you can find.
I came across these Champions and have been in love ever since.
The stock number is 293. The part number is C53CX. It's a gasket type seat and 14mm x 3/4" thread. They fit my M&A heads.

 

[Alky V6]

I'm not trying to talk you into anything. I was just sharing for others that melting electrodes as you have had happen would not be as obvious with a more robust ground strapped plug.
Hence the tune not being on target and catching it earlier than it would with a different plug.
I do not use nitrous as I have no need for it.
Most nitrous cars I know of use NGK's with great success.
To each his own.

If I were to stick with NGKs, I would have to cut back the ground electrode further than they are as they come out of the box. That's a lot of work. It's much nicer if you can find a plug that comes out of the box the way you want it.
The Champions come out of the box cut back so far, I can barely get the gap to close up enough to reach my gap spec of .022".

Doesn't every serious racer use NGKs? They're very popular plugs. I used them for 8 or 9 years. They do read extremely well. They just weren't durable enough for my situation. If I had a serious cough on a nitrous activation during a launch, I had to pull all the plugs to make sure they were OK. I was done with them when I had to pull the engine to dig the porcelain from a plug out of my piston and head, and replace the turbine wheel because the porcelain smacked it on the way out. Used to be I'd catch them with a crack, but this one time the whole porcelain came off to cause me major grief. And this was from a simple nitrous intake pop.
Probably 2 years with the Champions now. Many tuning mishaps and experiments. They stuck with me through all my latest nitrous/methanol ALS tuning experiments. Not one plug has given me trouble. I wish I could convey to you how much stress these new plugs have taken away. You would need to have been there through all my trials and tribulations to really understand.

 

[JOHNDEEREGN]

I would dump that ALKY and switch to E85. It seems like some Heavy Hitters are having success with it.

Like your latest You Tube video....

 

[Alky V6]

No matter what the plug manufacturer, I do know this. A projected nose plug has no business being in a serious max effort engine that is burning at the limits of the fuels capabilities. Let alone a mixture of fuels with capabilities that are a gigantic UNKNOWN.

 

[Pronto]

I've asked this question in previous posts about cutting back the ground strap and got lukewarm responses. Here goes. For an 11 second car, does cutting back the strap help or hurt the performance? I have read articles about it and most are advocates. Simple enough to do with a small handpiece and cutoff wheel. I'm using NGK UR5s with no issues. Do you cut the strape straight across or slightly rounded?

 

[Alky V6]

I've asked this question in previous posts about cutting back the ground strap and got lukewarm responses. Here goes. For an 11 second car, does cutting back the strap help or hurt the performance? I have read articles about it and most are advocates. Simple enough to do with a small handpiece and cutoff wheel. I'm using NGK UR5s with no issues. Do you cut the strape straight across or slightly rounded?

When I used to cut back the ground strap, I didn't make it any more difficult than it had to be. I just cut it straight across. I cut it back to where the end of the ground strap was even with the OD of the center electrode. After making the cut, make sure the end of the strap is finely filed smooth with the edges as sharp as possible. Particularly the edge closest to the center electrode.

My main reason now for using as short a ground strap as possible is to keep the surface area of the ground strap as small as possible to limit the amount of heat that can build up in it and give the heat a quicker and shorter path to the cooling source, the head. Any heat that is absorbed by the ground strap has a much shorter path to the thread section of the plug and then to the head, so the ground strap stays cooler. This way there is much less chance of the end of the ground strap building up too much heat and becoming incandescent. If the end of the ground strap becomes incandescent, there is a higher chance of the ground strap actually igniting the a/f charge before the actual timed spark event (preignition). This is particularly the case why short ground straps are highly recommended when nitrous oxide injection is involved.

If a ground strap is heated to the point of near incandescence, and a tuning error occurs, the ground strap is that much closer to presenting a very real problem. The ground strap will quickly overheat and become incandescent.
If a ground strap is operated at a temperature further from the edge of incandescence, then there is a little more of a safety factor built in for if and when a tuning mishap occurs. There is a much better chance of coming out of the event with no damage done.

 

[Alky V6]

Another reason why you would cut back the ground strap is for clearance when using high dome pistons. Sometimes indexing the plug would also be necessary for spark plug to piston dome clearance.
This is not a problem with a low compression turbo engine.

The electrical theory for cutting back the ground electrode is to present sharp edges of the two electrodes, the ground strap and the center electrode, to each other to promote the start of the planned, timed spark event. Electrons like to collect, and jump across a gap easier at clean sharp edges of nice freshly cut metal. Less KV is required to initiate the spark event.
When points ignition were still common, and HEI and electronic ignition were just starting to hit the seen, anything that helped to promote the spark event was a very good thing to do. With high compression pressures of a boosted engine, that runs gobs of methanol and nitrous, it's still a good thing to promote the spark event and make it as easy as possible for the ignition system.

 

[HUMBLE-U2]

theres a very expensive lesson for all of us to learn here!

 

[Alky V6]

Back in my time, cut back ground electrodes was one of those things that was at the top of any serious tuners mind. I can't believe I'm having to sit here and explain such a basic thing on a site that is manned with 'super tuners'.

I really hope my efforts here are sinking in. Good luck, guys.

 

[SS/GN]

No matter what the plug manufacturer, I do know this. A projected nose plug has no business being in a serious max effort engine that is burning at the limits of the fuels capabilities. Let alone a mixture of fuels with capabilities that are a gigantic UNKNOWN.

I started a thread on this in general tech???Why is it in a stock head GN everyone still uses a projected tipI see in NGK most non projected plugs for our cars are 6 or colder heat range and coul load up on the street.I was on bullet and in the turbo section with even 10lbs of boost the guys are all using non projected 9 heat rangeThanks for the info Donnie

Kevin

 

[Alky V6]

Back when I was in high school, there wasn't much turbo stuff going on. It was n/a and every once in awhile someone would hit the streets with nitrous or a blower, but I can't recall ever seeing a turbo on the street back then. The tech just wasn't there yet.
Anyway, due to the limitations of a points ignition system, the spark plug was always under the spot light. Nowadays, with HEI, the spark plug gets ignored because you can still run these enormous gaps and get away with it. Young people getting into hot rodding pay much less attention to the spark plug compared to days past. But, make no mistake, the spark plug is still a very, very important part of the tune.
It was so important to me that I carried a fresh set of plugs to the street races and changed them on site before I took someone on.

Projected nose plugs really have no place in a serious performance machine. If you're worried about idle quality, emissions, better combustion of lean mixtures, less chance of ignition missing with lean mixtures, then you would want to move towards larger gaps and projected nose plugs, but in the performance world, that is moving in the opposite direction of where you should be going.
In the performance world, the number one consideration is making it to the finish line in one piece, and hopefully, being the first one there.
You want a SAFE spark plug.

 

[SloGN]

What plugs do u recommend for a alum headed stroker making around 500 HP at the crank

 

[WSLN 6]

A part number is appreciated.....

 

[SloGN]

What plugs do u recommend for a alum headed stroker making around 500 HP at the crank

Edit i meant at the wheels. i'm currently using NGK's i can't remember the actual number or the stocking number



The heads are the TA units

 

[SloGN]

When I used to cut back the ground strap, I didn't make it any more difficult than it had to be. I just cut it straight across. I cut it back to where the end of the ground strap was even with the OD of the center electrode. After making the cut, make sure the end of the strap is finely filed smooth with the edges as sharp as possible. Particularly the edge closest to the center electrode.

My main reason now for using as short a ground strap as possible is to keep the surface area of the ground strap as small as possible to limit the amount of heat that can build up in it and give the heat a quicker and shorter path to the cooling source, the head. Any heat that is absorbed by the ground strap has a much shorter path to the thread section of the plug and then to the head, so the ground strap stays cooler. This way there is much less chance of the end of the ground strap building up too much heat and becoming incandescent. If the end of the ground strap becomes incandescent, there is a higher chance of the ground strap actually igniting the a/f charge before the actual timed spark event (preignition). This is particularly the case why short ground straps are highly recommended when nitrous oxide injection is involved.

If a ground strap is heated to the point of near incandescence, and a tuning error occurs, the ground strap is that much closer to presenting a very real problem. The ground strap will quickly overheat and become incandescent.
If a ground strap is operated at a temperature further from the edge of incandescence, then there is a little more of a safety factor built in for if and when a tuning mishap occurs. There is a much better chance of coming out of the event with no damage done.

Another reason why you would cut back the ground strap is for clearance when using high dome pistons. Sometimes indexing the plug would also be necessary for spark plug to piston dome clearance.
This is not a problem with a low compression turbo engine.

The electrical theory for cutting back the ground electrode is to present sharp edges of the two electrodes, the ground strap and the center electrode, to each other to promote the start of the planned, timed spark event. Electrons like to collect, and jump across a gap easier at clean sharp edges of nice freshly cut metal. Less KV is required to initiate the spark event.
When points ignition were still common, and HEI and electronic ignition were just starting to hit the seen, anything that helped to promote the spark event was a very good thing to do. With high compression pressures of a boosted engine, that runs gobs of methanol and nitrous, it's still a good thing to promote the spark event and make it as easy as possible for the ignition system.

Back in my time, cut back ground electrodes was one of those things that was at the top of any serious tuners mind. I can't believe I'm having to sit here and explain such a basic thing on a site that is manned with 'super tuners'.

I really hope my efforts here are sinking in. Good luck, guys.

Donnie

You are very correct about the younger guys not knowing about spark plugs and how to understand reading them and whats the best type for the application.

I'm one of those guys. Nobody has ever told me about the issues you mentioned above. But now that you pointed it out it makes a ton of sense to use a shirt nosed plug. I can see now how they can become a source if pre-ignition. ( kinda like the sharp peak in the center of a diesel piston. using that as a igniton point)

So in tuning i might be tring to tune out a knock problem when in fact the plug could be causing it maybe. I doubt that i'm making enough power to see this but you just never know.

i'm still tring to read and understand all aspects of plug reading. only in the last few yrs have i been aggresivly tring to learn how to tune a engine. So far i havn't killed anything yet but i try and keep it conservative. I guess thats why i'm always last at the races.....

 

[Otto J]

I can't believe I'm having to sit here and explain such a basic thing on a site that is manned with 'super tuners'.

Hey Don, you do realize that not every member on the site is a "Super tuner"

Do you feel the "super tuners" should haev already explained this to all the non "super tuners"