Why isn't BUSH impeached?

[We4ster]

Now its our job to police the world? I think not..
Whats going on in Iraq will continue whether we are there or not.
Its been this way for a 1000 years and will continue.
Do you really think we can change the way they think, the way they live and their beliefs? Maybe we can take a lesson from the Soviet Union and go in and commit genocide, because that is the only way we can change the middle east.
I have nothing but respect for our military and our troops, my gravest concern is with the present administration. Bush is not running this show, he's not smart enough, his advisers have fooled him into believing that that this strategy will work. It was ill conceived and ill planned and will cost the lives of thousands of innocent people. Yes , we do need to deal with these fanatical terrorists................This isnt the way.
Bush plans on turning over power to the iraqis in 2 months, no provisional government has even been set up. Whats going to be our next step? Back into afghanistan, we left that country in a real mess. Or are we going to invade syria, lebanon, jordan or iran? Oh what the hell, lets kill them all!
Bush has declared war on the world! How are we going to fight this war? Why not outlaw the Moslem faith and kill all believers?

"WE HAVE BEEN LIED TO"

"I ONLY DRIVE AMERICAN CARS"

 

[The Radius Kid]

I have a question:when these "leaders" send their own people on suicide missions,when they kill [and torture]large numbers of their own people,when they kill other people not of their faith,are they acting within the tenets of their faith and should they be left unchecked?
It seems to me Islam is the largest religion in the world today[by numbers].

 

[We4ster]

Let them kill each other....less to worry about

Invade their world and try and change them ..........foolish

Hussein is gone...................time to leave

Defend our country...............yes

 

[The Pro]

You don't get it.

We can't BE isolationist in a global economy. We can't afford to (literally).

It hasn't been that way in Iraq for 1000 years. Go back and hit the history books to drive some clarity into your brain housing group on that matter.

Turning over the 4th largest oil supply in the world to terrorist would not only marginalize our already fallen heroes, it would necessitate the future bloodshed of more of our troops.

THINK STRATEGICALLY.

 

[We4ster]

"We can't BE isolationist in a global economy. We can't afford to (literally"

I agree 100%, we can't be isolationists! Our present administration has made us so by distancing the U.S. from the U.N and most of europe and asia...We acted on our own!

How much oil do we get from Iraq?

The iraqis are not terrorists....they are "religious fanatics"

"THINK STRATEGICALLY"

Strategically does not equal stupidly......The only way we can control middle eastern oil is through the cooperation of the arab countries...We piss them off..........bye bye oil..
We created a terrorist state when we invaded iraq..They were controlled by a sadistic dictator not terrorists..by overthrowing hussein and destroying the countries infrastructure, we opened the doors. Our soldiers are now target as more and more terrorists pour accross iraqi borders...
Turn the government over to iraq and get out....There will be a civil war as the shiites and sunnis fight for power. If we stay the same will happen but we will be caught in the middle..

Q. "What is our exit strategy"?
A. "We don't have one"

 

[The Pro]

Your "we need to get our of there" mentality indicates isolationism. The "lets let them blow each other up" statement augments my view of where you are mentally on this subject.

Strategy ISN'T to act stupidly. That is what happened in Somalia when like-minded people said "lets just get out of there"... Guess what? That sends a message of weakness, not compassion. You can NOT show weakness to these people. The ones that don't want to kill you won't respect you, and the ones that do will become emboldened.

It helps if you actually were to sit down and think about folks that have been there, and done that, rather than illustrate points based on "sound bytes" that were handed to you by other people. Show some original thought. I'm not saying you have to agree with me (it's unlikely you will) but provide a critical deconstruction of an opposing viewpoint rather than enumerating the viewpoints of others as if they were your own.

 

[We4ster]

I spent enough time in Nam to know when its time to leave.
We can "not" win no matter what we do. If we stay and slaughter iraqi's, we are no better than the previous administration. If we leave, at least we can say we removed Hussein. It appears that you understand a little of the middle eastern culture, good for you. WE ARE THE ENEMY now and they want us out. You cant put western values/philosophies in a middle eastern culture...They are tribal and it wont work. Bring in the U.N. and let them clean up the mess!......

 

[b231v6]

Originally posted by We4ster
I spent enough time in Nam to know when its time to leave.
We can "not" win no matter what we do. If we stay and slaughter iraqi's, we are no better than the previous administration. If we leave, at least we can say we removed Hussein. It appears that you understand a little of the middle eastern culture, good for you. WE ARE THE ENEMY now and they want us out. You cant put western values/philosophies in a middle eastern culture...They are tribal and it wont work. Bring in the U.N. and let them clean up the mess!......

Their the enemy!! NO SH** Sherlock> FIRST THING THAT YOU'VE TYPED THAT MAKES SENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[The Pro]

Originally posted by We4ster
I spent enough time in Nam to know when its time to leave.
We can "not" win no matter what we do. If we stay and slaughter iraqi's, we are no better than the previous administration. If we leave, at least we can say we removed Hussein. It appears that you understand a little of the middle eastern culture, good for you. WE ARE THE ENEMY now and they want us out. You cant put western values/philosophies in a middle eastern culture...They are tribal and it wont work. Bring in the U.N. and let them clean up the mess!......

Completely different conflict, era, and goals. The Vietnamese didn't go outside their country and blow people up. They also were fighting for their freedom for many many years before we ever considered going there.

The Iraqi's wanted out from under Saddam's boot. Nobody in their right mind doubts this. How it was accomplished, and what should be done afterwards were always semantic discussions that *nobody* ever agreed on in large numbers. Why? Not because they didn't think it was a good idea to dislodge Saddam; rather, it was a reflection on the viewpoints of after-war actions and their effects on things like contracts, oil supplies, that sort of crap.

The UN is irrelevant in terms of *anything* more than simply gaining a consensus. They have NEVER stopped a DAMN THING, never amounted to anything, and will never do anything other than stand around with blue suits on looking like idiots while other folks make the hard decisions. Korea, Eastern Europe, Africa, etc.. All bad choices on their parts to try and "gain consensus" by getting people killed. It was other countries that had the BALLS to make the hard choices that forced the issue one way or another.

I'm not trying to make Iraqi's subscribe to our beliefs; rather, I'm illustrating we can't put the same value systems WE have to THEM. *because* they are different, they respond to different things, have different motives, different belief systems, etc. All of these make them a very rich, diverse culture. However, that can also make their kook-fundamentalist types all the more dangerous. If we leave now and don't provide stability, we will do the SAME thing that the UK did when leaving Palestine after Israel was established.

Go look that one up and tell me what you think....

 

[We4ster]

Nam,
Different time, different era...Same kind of war..POLITICAL!
We will leave and the results will be the same...civil war

Iraq wasnt/isnt a terrorist country....The terrorists there now are outsiders.

How are you going to supply stability to iraq?...the billion dollar question

How are you going to get the sunnis, the shiites and the kurds to cooperate?.....................2nd billion dollar question..

Check their history of cooperating..................

 

[The Pro]

The idea isn't to get them to cooperate. The idea is for them to *nationalize*. You claim to have been in Nam, you then realize that is what THEY did.

That's how they were successful.. Well, they employed terror tactics to villagers that didn't see things their way, but that's irrelevant right? Do you think that what you see on TV there is *all* that is going on? Do you not think we are wanted there by the majority of Iraqis? Do you not see the good we've done? No, because THAT isn't headlines for news. We've restored not only pre-war power and sanitation levels, they are *better* than they were pre-1991... That doesn't seem to make the news.

You mention Shi'a and Sunni. Do you even know why they disagree? Do you think it's all the religious stuff for them? If you do, you're just another media-victim. They don't sit there and argue this $hit all day. Most folks just want to eat, feed their families, go home, and exist. They would like more, but they are happy with what they have. They don't want anyone killing their families (we do this by accident, not by design) and they would prefer to govern themselves. *to that end*, we need to remain there until we give them the tools to do that. IF we leave prior to that being accomplished, then everything we've done so far (dead troops, money, dead civilians, etc) is a "sunken cost" and it will revert to a dictatorial society. I know all too well their history, and I also know that what they do here and now will define them as a people. They have no sense of nationality right now. All they know is that Saddam is not in power. They've defined themselves as *Muslims* in times past, out of contempt for Saddam. IF they had some national pride, and something to call their very own, I'm sure that would change (as is normal in human nature, regardless of societal factors).

Iraq *WAS* a terrorist country. Are you out of your mind even saying they weren't?!??!?!? Did they sponsor 9/11? Not directly, not from what I have seen. Did they train terrorists, and help finance organizations who killed people all over the world? *absolutely*, and THAT proof has NEVER been questioned. The only thing that has been questioned has been the WMD issue.

 

[1QWIK6]

Iraq *WAS* a terrorist country. Are you out of your mind even saying they weren't?!??!?!? Did they sponsor 9/11? Not directly, not from what I have seen. Did they train terrorists, and help finance organizations who killed people all over the world? *absolutely*, and THAT proof has NEVER been questioned.

LINK?

 

[TurboJunky]

The Pro,

Evidence has been shown to our LIB friends here that Saddam had his hands in terrorism. They choose to either ignore it, dismiss it or call them all lies (sound familiar?). Facts don't seem to be something they're interested in.

 

[TurboJunky]

Here's a highly informative description of the Iraq situation. It's about the shortest, no-spin and informative description of our relations with Iraq in the past 20 years.

 

[The Pro]

Originally posted by 1QWIK6
LINK?

What do you call gassing his own people? What do you call him systematically killing anyone in his country that did anything from say his name incorrectly to daring to defy his authority? What do you call the rape and murder of Kuwaitis during his several month incursion into their country?

Roll your eyes all you want. You might try opening them instead.... It's amazing what you can learn when you use your own judgement instead of what the media hands you. Unless you're used to having other people decide for you (in which case you might be better off in Europe, where that sort of thing is du jour).

 

[The Radius Kid]

Do a little checking on that writer I mentioned ealier.
You may find that Iran is training terrorists for Iraq with the ultimate goal of controlling Iraq's government.
The training bases are just inside Iran,next to the Iraq border in the mountains.

 

[ThikStik]

Our porous bordors will provide the way for terrorist to nail us again. Not a matter of if but when. After it does, both parties should be ashamed of their stance, or lack of, re border control. This should wake up the people once again to the need to trust no country and to be proactive when necessary. Or not, maybe a mushroom cloud will be necessary.

 

[We4ster]

Bottom line again...............

They want us out of their country...They dont want our help and they dont give a damn about us. Installing or even considering nationalism between the sunnis, shiites and kurds is absurd...
Its a nice dream, but thats all it is.....FANTASY!

Our porous borders....thats an understatement, Mexico and South America bring tons of drugs accross the border on a daily basis..Bring our troops home and protect our borders...More worthwhile investment! You want to do nation building? Do it closer to home....MEXICO and South America have just as much oil as the middle east.. Let the Arabs drown in their oil...

Idealistic? Maybe....Better option than dealing with those bastards..

 

[1QWIK6]

TTA... thanks for the link... I found it very informative...

There is no hard evidence linking Saddam to the attacks...

Does Iraq have ties with al-Qaeda?
The Bush administration insists that hatred of America has driven the two closer together, although many experts say there’s no solid proof of such links and argue that the Islamist al-Qaeda and Saddam’s secular dictatorship would be unlikely allies

Czech officials have also reported that Muhammad Atta, one of the September 11 ringleaders, met an Iraqi intelligence agent in Prague months before the hijackings, but U.S. and Czech officials subsequently cast doubt on whether such a meeting ever happened

What type of terrorist groups has Iraq supported?Primarily groups that can hurt Saddam’s regional foes

Have U.S.-Iraq relations always been hostile?
No. In the 1980s, following the Iranian revolution and the subsequent hostage crisis in Tehran, the United States saw Saddam as a useful regional counterweight to the Ayatollah Khomeini. Indeed, when Iraq launched a long, brutal war against Iran in 1980, the Reagan administration provided Saddam’s regime with arms, funds, and support.

Great LINK! Thanks

 

[1QWIK6]

The Pro(?)

Iraq *WAS* a terrorist country. Are you out of your mind even saying they weren't?!??!?!? Did they sponsor 9/11? Not directly, not from what I have seen. Did they train terrorists, and help finance organizations who killed people all over the world? *absolutely*, and THAT proof has NEVER been questioned

1QWIK6 said...

LINK...

Pro said...

What do you call gassing his own people? What do you call him systematically killing anyone in his country that did anything from say his name incorrectly to daring to defy his authority? What do you call the rape and murder of Kuwaitis during his several month incursion into their country?

I asked for a link.. not an opinion Secondly... how does that effect the USA? We gave him the weapons in the first place,
how was he a threat to the USA?

Now before you answer... remember, NO CLINTON, KERRY, FRANCE, LIBERAL, CONSEVATIVE, etc.... I know it will be hard, but if you do add those words... you are automatically dismissed from discussion.