My 8 month HORROR story. What would you do?

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TurboTGuy

Gray Beard Member
I don't know a damn thing about cam specs and wrote that myself when I got the bill since no one told me the specs.
So what were the specs for the cam "YOU" didn't order.


So now you have admittedly created a s^*t storm for yourself, admitting you personally don't know squat about your car, and you rely on someone (a Mustang guy) who is good with "cars" but knows NOTHING about a Turbo Buick, to be your "trusted" mechanic.

You're definitely on the right track to get your car ship shape.
 
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A2000RICH

Well-Known Member
For those of you that are not familiar with bearing fitment here are some explanations:

These pictures are the pictures of the upper and lower rod bearings that were removed from rods 1-6 and are numbered such. Each one has the thickness written beside it with the first decimal place omitted ie 620 means .0620". They are clearly in the range of the normal specification for +1 bearings.

The seventh pic is of the number 2 and 3 crank journals showing no damage or signs of distress or heat discoloration. I did not remove the 1 or 4 crank bearings or the upper bearings on 2 and 3 since doing so would have required removal of the front cover and resealing the rear main which would have resulted in much more expense and time. Since the lower 2 and 3 crank bearings are always the ones that have the most problems (thats why we put steel caps in this location) it would have been a useless exercise to check the upper halves since all the real stress is on the lower shells. Picture 8 is of the lower main bearings removed from the 2 and 3 caps.

These are the pictures that Ron Mooney says he has never seen even though he was handed them and had them explained to him.

Pics 1-6 show upper and lower rod bearings with absolutely no signs of physical damage or heat discoloration which is always present when there is rod knock damage. Standard bearings usually deviate in new sets from .0612 to .0616 and +1 bearings usually deviate from .0618 to .0621. Plus 1 bearings were used in this engine due to the crank journals being slightly on the low side of the spec. I always select bearings to achieve an assembled clearance between .0018 to .0022 on both rods and mains. When i get a chance I will post the actual dimensions of all 6 rod journals and 4 main journals with the actual clearances that were in the finished engine.

I always do my journal and bearing size measurements with a MIT/Starrett snap gauge and Starrett digital micrometer. Both of these devices read to 5 decimal places and I frequently check them with Meyer double X plug and ring gauges.
 

TurboTGuy

Gray Beard Member
For those of you that are not familiar with bearing fitment here are some explanations:

These pictures are the pictures of the upper and lower rod bearings that were removed from rods 1-6 and are numbered such. Each one has the thickness written beside it with the first decimal place omitted ie 620 means .0620". They are clearly in the range of the normal specification for +1 bearings.

The seventh pic is of the number 2 and 3 crank journals showing no damage or signs of distress or heat discoloration. I did not remove the 1 or 4 crank bearings or the upper bearings on 2 and 3 since doing so would have required removal of the front cover and resealing the rear main which would have resulted in much more expense and time. Since the lower 2 and 3 crank bearings are always the ones that have the most problems (thats why we put steel caps in this location) it would have been a useless exercise to check the upper halves since all the real stress is on the lower shells. Picture 8 is of the lower main bearings removed from the 2 and 3 caps.

These are the pictures that Ron Mooney says he has never seen even though he was handed them and had them explained to him.

Pics 1-6 show upper and lower rod bearings with absolutely no signs of physical damage or heat discoloration which is always present when there is rod knock damage. Standard bearings usually deviate in new sets from .0612 to .0616 and +1 bearings usually deviate from .0618 to .0621. Plus 1 bearings were used in this engine due to the crank journals being slightly on the low side of the spec. I always select bearings to achieve an assembled clearance between .0018 to .0022 on both rods and mains. When i get a chance I will post the actual dimensions of all 6 rod journals and 4 main journals with the actual clearances that were in the finished engine.

I always do my journal and bearing size measurements with a MIT/Starrett snap gauge and Starrett digital micrometer. Both of these devices read to 5 decimal places and I frequently check them with Meyer double X plug and ring gauges.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct...aw05wVeCiV10fHs3u86J2Pkr&ust=1535862601587952
 
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turbobuick

Well-Known Member
For those of you that are not familiar with bearing fitment here are some explanations:

These pictures are the pictures of the upper and lower rod bearings that were removed from rods 1-6 and are numbered such. Each one has the thickness written beside it with the first decimal place omitted ie 620 means .0620". They are clearly in the range of the normal specification for +1 bearings.

The seventh pic is of the number 2 and 3 crank journals showing no damage or signs of distress or heat discoloration. I did not remove the 1 or 4 crank bearings or the upper bearings on 2 and 3 since doing so would have required removal of the front cover and resealing the rear main which would have resulted in much more expense and time. Since the lower 2 and 3 crank bearings are always the ones that have the most problems (thats why we put steel caps in this location) it would have been a useless exercise to check the upper halves since all the real stress is on the lower shells. Picture 8 is of the lower main bearings removed from the 2 and 3 caps.

These are the pictures that Ron Mooney says he has never seen even though he was handed them and had them explained to him.

Pics 1-6 show upper and lower rod bearings with absolutely no signs of physical damage or heat discoloration which is always present when there is rod knock damage. Standard bearings usually deviate in new sets from .0612 to .0616 and +1 bearings usually deviate from .0618 to .0621. Plus 1 bearings were used in this engine due to the crank journals being slightly on the low side of the spec. I always select bearings to achieve an assembled clearance between .0018 to .0022 on both rods and mains. When i get a chance I will post the actual dimensions of all 6 rod journals and 4 main journals with the actual clearances that were in the finished engine.

I always do my journal and bearing size measurements with a MIT/Starrett snap gauge and Starrett digital micrometer. Both of these devices read to 5 decimal places and I frequently check them with Meyer double X plug and ring gauges.
IMO you really don't need to defend yourself at this point. It is obvious Ron's only motive here is to smear you not get his car fixed. We are all human and even if you did screw one together wrong I don't think any of us believe for a second you wouldn't have been the first to try and make it right. Some people are just beyond reach.

Ron, more than enough qualified people in this thread have offered to help you fix the problem yet all you do is rant about the supposed problem and your bill which IMO was cheap. Why don't you try to get your car fixed and work with people instead of bitching and complaining?

Check the oil pressure, cut open the filter, if there is a problem with what RCG did you will know instantly. A bad bearing or a camshaft that is eating a lifter make a pretty serious mess and the filter will be full of shit. If you have a clean filter and the motor has oil pressure then the internals are probably not your problem.

If thats all good run the motor without the accessory belt, check the TQ conv and flexplate, check the crank sensor and balancer etc. Again, I have personally had all these issues at some point, especially the flexplate and TQ on a Buick V6!!

You want to talk about butt hurt and engine builds? I went through 3 motor builds in one season over a screw up from Diamond pistons that they ended up somewhat admitting to. One of the pistons blew apart in the finals at Norwalk and as a result my car was in ball of flames in the traps at over 160mph!! I spent well over $15k that summer fixing that motor due to others mistakes and what do you think I got? A free set of pistons from diamond and another bill from my machinist!!

Point is this is aftermarket high performance engine building, there is no warranty on stuff. If you want to get your car fixed you need to work with people not slam them on the internet which will get you no where quick.
 

GNwithatwist

New Member
This thread is starting to look like internet suicide to me. It's a sure way to cut your internet throat. JMO

I do have a new level of respect for RCG though based on the detailed description of events.

X 2. Ron, you are an internet idiot. Do us all a favor, get your head out of your butt, and your fingers off the keyboard.
 
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slaby86

New Member
I'm an RCG customer. I have seen the guys at the shop here bend over backwards for literally every customer that has brought work to the shop. The work they did to my car was mild in comparison to some of the complex builds they work on. Mr. Clark has personally helped me out with many small issues that were present on my car before it ever arrived here. He has given me parts and more importantly, his time, and for some of it didn't charge me a cent. I have literally written these guys checks for higher than they tried to charge me because I saw the time and effort they put into my car and my conscience wouldn't allow me to under pay them even if they said it was enough. They are not greedy. RCG doesn't do this to turn a profit, it is a hobby for Mr. Clark and he is passionate about these cars.

It kills me to see dipshits like Mr. Mooney give them grief and threaten them. They do this work as a service to the Turbo Buick community. They do it because they enjoy it. As soon as they stop enjoying the work, it will go away, so I hope that they continue to provide this service for many years to come to customers that appreciate their expertise and standard of excellence. Mooney has threatened multiple employees of RCG from the safety net of text messages and Internet threats. Mr. Clark is a better man than I for dealing with him in a civil manner and still offering to make things right with his car.
 

1952ray

Scrambled Dog
Gosh been trying to keep my mouth shut, however I do believe Richard is a gift to the turbo Buick world, and I am happy that he is my friend. My car has been there off and on for two years and spent somewhere around 28k very happy with what I have. tufbuick I am forced to tell you at 73 years of age and you are worrying over $4,100. That Buick’s and broke dick dogs don’t go together. You have no case !!!
 

TurboTGuy

Gray Beard Member
Gotta say, $4100, even for a stock Turbo Regal engine, seems pretty inexpensive. But of course, this guy could have built a 10 sec junk yard LS motor for a mere $35, if we are to believe all the LS guys....................
 

zapp240

Active Member
This whole thread has gone of the rails for the OP. At one point, i heard Richard offer to replace his motor with a brand new virgin motor if he could not fix this noise, albeit at the owners expense if proven the noise was not of the garages doing. At that point, I would have had my car down their faster than you could whistle Dixie. I am only commenting because Richard and Xavier built my motor that I picked up and Installed myself earlier this year. The motor if nothing else, has added value to my car as having one of the premier GN guru's as the engine builder. Having picked up the motor and Having Richard spend the day touring his shop and explaining bearing clearances and showing me the video of my crank on the BOB weight machine as well as other numerous things in his shop that it confuses me how anyone could walk away thinking that if something was wrong with their motor , he would not make it right. i think the OP went about this the wrong way, It would have been better to not have cut of your nose to spite your face, and followed thru with the offer to get it fixed right.
 

A2000RICH

Well-Known Member
note to Ron Mooney
your phone text implying that I am hiding something related to your lifters is rather crude. That I am "trying to think up a good lie" to explain why your lifters were not on your bill. Your engine has a flat tappet cam and most know that flat tappet cams don't cost nearly as much as rollers. Your lifters were included in the price of your cam since they sort of go together. Your lifters are GM # 5234485. These are the buick specific lifters with the separate chilled hardened foot on the bottom and the smaller diameter cup for the pushrod on the top - they are not the similar looking lower cost ,and more often used chevy lifters, that are used by most engine builders.
My time spent in the development of Z-Plus taught me a lot about flat tappet cams and these are the only flat tappet lifters I will ever use in a Buick V-6 for reasons too numerous to list here.
Your cam is a modest upgrade from a stock buick vin-7 cam. The stock cam (# 25527480) is a 193/197 with a lift of .250" x 1.55 = .388" and .265" x 1.55 = 410". Your new cam is a 194/204 with a lift of .273" x 1.55 = .424" and 289" x 1.55 = 448". this represents about a 10% greater lift than the stock cam.
Since your engine had mildly ported iron heads I used this cam based on my previous experience with similar engine builds. I have built about 30 engines with this cam and never has anyone been disappointed in the results. It results in a reasonable power increase with zero downsides in driveability.
And while I am dealing with issues I would like to discuss your opinion that my shop is somehow a bad place to keep a "nice" car. While it is true that many cars sit outside on the lot, that is not true about any of the nicer cars. Currently I have about 15 customer cars in my possession. 3 of them consist of very low mileage GNX's and 2 GN,s. One of the GNX's has been here over a year getting major work. Neither of these cars has ever spent a day outside. I have a really nice large building not far from my shop where I keep nicer cars that are not currently being worked on. I shuttle the cars back and forth with my own rollback. This building is guarded by a retired US marine that loves GN's and personally has 2 of them himself. I pity the fool that tries to venture near that building uninvited. Naturally I don't disclose the location of this place but for you I will forgo that policy and take you there if you don't believe me. Some of the nicest gn's that exist have spent a lot of time in my shop. One car in particular (belongs to Jim A.) has probably spent a month or more in my shop over the last 16 years and it is 100% concours perfect and anyone that has seen it will testify that it is the finest GN they have ever seen. Another car (belongs to Ray C.) is so unusually nice that it would be a runaway best of show in practically any car show. His car has probably spent 6 months or more at my shop and it only spent 4 days outside my shop during the last TurboBuick nationals event.
As for your accusation that I charge "storage fees" is not truthful. All I can say is if you can find anyone that has a copy of a bill from my shop with storage fees please tell them to contact me and I will repay them double.
 

psycho6cyl

Ponies Are For Lil Girls
Ive been on both sides. Screwed by a known vendor and problems not from the vendor. His my take. Richard had it looked for rod knock inspected didnt see anything. Video is not worth a dam. Knowing Richard if there was anything remotely wrong w motor he would have stopped it. Ok so its gets a ok from shop but ron should have atleast taken up the offer for guys to show up when other shop was doing it. Especially if it was at no cost. I just dont get that thinking. I also think richard should have had ron present when motor was on stand.
Also you cant expect a shop not to charge if it turns out it wasnt their mistake. If you were 100% sure it was them i would bring car back but be present when the teardown is going ro happen. I think its best to cut loses dont deal w ahop again and move on.
 

psycho6cyl

Ponies Are For Lil Girls
read the post carefully ron was present for the second run test, engine was run for nearly an hour at various speeds and with double mufflers you could actually hear the injectors clicking and I commented on it to him

Ohh missed that. Then all bets are off.. and you still.offered to be there when they installed it? Woww
 

Coach

Bo ran away with my goat :(
They look good so why'd you stop there when you were supplied with a video and you knew the motor had a knock.
You built it , you find the knock and fix it, you didn't !
OK.....I'll type this slowly since you obviously aren't real quick.
You still have not answered the simple questions I asked you about. You just keep causing problems and have no intent of resolving this like men. Richard said..."Bring us the ENTIRE CAR." He cannot offer to do any more then that.
Just by process of elimination...I can assume that the knock is only when its in the car. How can Xavier or Richard fix a knock they cannot hear while on the engine stand? The knock is more then likely not in the bottom end....its in the accessories or transmission / convertor.
Take the whole car to Richard and let him fix it. If your not going to do this....shut the fuck up.
If you have an issue with my responses....look me up.
 
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Coach

Bo ran away with my goat :(
Ohh missed that. Then all bets are off.. and you still.offered to be there when they installed it? Woww
Yeah, He was there....heard it and filmed it. He then agreed and took possession of it.
How much more can Richard offer? The knock is only present when the engine is in the chassis, not running alone. Rocket science 101 determines....Knock is accessory, tranny / convertor related...or chassis issue of some kind.
 
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