SR7 Performance - anyone here dealt with them?

[CPT]

COME ON BACK FRANK.enlighten us .at 1400 dollars for a build theres gotta be a lot of tricks.we want to hear some of them as well as get some answers to my questions.why does a 4l60e pragrammed to shift at 6800 rpms wot shift at 7200 hot or when power output goes up?why is the dump circuit for the 3rd port lower than the feed when leaving the circuit half full when not used provide a faster application of the clutch pack when 3rd gear is selected?there are some sharp pencils in this forum,welcome aboard "4l60e specialist".

Chris,
You've once again proven that "book smarts" don't make you a great transmission builder. You can ask this about that, and so on. The point is, we've got them working (and lasting) in the 9's. If you're setting your computer shift points lower than the transmission is actually shifting, you're missing something. Maybe you missed class that day?
As for your comment. I completely understand how an automatic transmission works. That's why we don't have the problems you're reffering to.
Give up my secrets? Chris, now you know that wouldn't be a wise buisness decision. Would you expect to call up Warren Johnson and get all his secrets? Sorry if your "book smarts" outweigh your "bench smarts". Spend some more time in the shop, instead of infront of the computer or the tech manuals. I'm sure you'll get it right eventually.
Before you go making yourself look stupid again, by claiming we don't have the answers. Take a poll of our customers. You'll find none of them have these "problems" that you can't fix.

Frank
CPT

 

[CPT]

Thank you for your input!! It sounds like you have a good handle on those transmissions & what's needed to survive in a mid 9 sec car. Do you do anything with the 200 4r in the Turbo Buicks?

Yes, I've built 2004R's for some of the quickest GN's in the country. I have them deep in the 9's.

Frank
CPT

 

[FASTFATBOY]

I didn't intend for this to happen, Frank is an AWESOME guy. His rep speaks for itself on CamaroZ28.com. He has helped me ALOT, I have not spent a dime with him....YET. But I guarantee you I will in the future.

Amazes me that people just EXPECT him to give up trade secrets like he joined a CULT or something. Frank PAID for his R&D, probably dearly. He has them working, that is evident. Do a search on CamaroZ28.com.

Mods, Frank(CPT) for some reason cannot log into the board, says his password is no good. Can you help him out?


I will keep you guys(that are interested) informed on the dealings with Scott at SR7 performance. I will call him on Monday first thing.


David

 

[CPT]

My biggest concern with the 700/4L60E is the input drum/shaft and the 3-4 clutches.

First, there are all types of different clutch pack configs out there and each builder has their own preferred method.
Z-Pak which is apparently getting a re-design.
Blue Plates
Alto Power Pack (which almost everyone agrees the steels are too thin).
7-9 clutch Hi-Energy setups, some builder like it with Kolenes.

No matter what we use for friction material, we are applying it with sheetmetal "fingers". So apply pressure is limited by that.

Next IF the 3-4s will hold up, the input drum/shaft will fail. We all know about the torque drive junk and the sleeved drum helps but is truly just a band aid.
If the aluminum/steel input shaft interface lives, the whole drum can fail.
I know Dana at Pro-Built believes this is caused by improperly pressing the sleeve on.
Then the shaft will fail, even, if hardened, at oil passages.
I occasionally speak/email with Tony at Hughes, and they have done some testing on these (possibly for GM), and he says the best scenario so far has been cryro treating NEW parts. At $300 for a new drum/shaft from GM, then cryro costs, that adds significant cost to the build and as we all know, the customer balks.

Then the gear ratios are too far off for most drag cars.
Chris, you should make a few more of the 2.66 gearsets...

The only real FIX I can see would be change the gear ratio, and completely design the input drum/shaft to use a larger surface area 3-4 clutch/ larger apply area, and get rid of the finger apply design. This would be a major redesign, probably to the point of needing case mods/redesign.

I know some guys are having limited success in the 9s or 10s but I feel that if you are truthful with a customer you would recommend a 4L80E if OD is a necessity.

I'm also curious to hear Frank's thoughts on the subject.

We know of a couple reasons why the input drum/shafts fail. It has nothing to do with the 3-4 clutch apply. You're looking at the wrong end of the input shaft for the problem. I've had a total of 2 input drum failures in 18 years.

Frank
CPT

 

[CPT]

Yes, I've built 2004R's for some of the quickest GN's in the country. I have them deep in the 9's.

Frank
CPT

Oops...Fastest has been 10.54. I had to make a phone call to check on it.

Frank
CPT

 

[jakeshoe]

Why are we welcoming a new person (CPT) to this forum with such disrespect?

Why would anybody in there right mind give up there trade secrets? I certainly wouldn't give up any information to this firing line! Why does he have to answer & do research here? That's pretty funny actually. It would seem some companies should be researching his product?

The only thing this post has done for me is help show me where NOT to spend my money and i thank CK performance for that.

Take care & good luck!

I think you are taking the posts out of context.
I don't see anything disrespectful. My post certainly wasn't meant that way. I doubt Chris' was either, he just comes across that way.
I wouldn't expect Frank to give up all his secrets, but we can have a technical discussion. Or I would hope so.

This is one of the best forums on the net for trans tech discussion because there are several well known builders who frequent here and most of the rest of the folks who frequent here have rebuilt or dabbled in transmissions some. So we're not dealing with a young person in the LS1 crowd that just believes whatever the hype of the week is (no disrespect to the LS1 crowd, but this is a generalization of what you will see).

Usually the posts stay relatively civil.

 

[CPT]

i just dont see these things living long in the mid tens without some "new" technology im not aware of

LOL...I just went to CK's web page. You're right about something. You DEFINITELY need some new technology. Your parts list looks like my scrap barrel. I couldn't (in good conscience) sell a transmission with that much junk in it. No wonder you're afraid of the 700/4L60E.

Frank
CPT

 

[jakeshoe]

We know of a couple reasons why the input drum/shafts fail. It has nothing to do with the 3-4 clutch apply. You're looking at the wrong end of the input shaft for the problem. I've had a total of 2 input drum failures in 18 years.

Frank
CPT

Frank,
I'm also aware of the converter clutch design having an affect on the input shaft, and I can definitely see this being a factor. The design of the input drum and various clutch packs all in one assembly causes a large amount of inertia that should work in the drums favor and makes the trans more efficient than other designs.

What are your thoughts on making the drum live and the 3-4 clutches.
Do you sleeve the drum? Cryro? Use a new piece?

Clutch pack selection for the 3-4s?

What are your thoughts on the release springs?

 

[CPT]

I think you are taking the posts out of context.
I don't see anything disrespectful. My post certainly wasn't meant that way. I doubt Chris' was either, he just comes across that way.
I wouldn't expect Frank to give up all his secrets, but we can have a technical discussion. Or I would hope so.

This is one of the best forums on the net for trans tech discussion because there are several well known builders who frequent here and most of the rest of the folks who frequent here have rebuilt or dabbled in transmissions some. So we're not dealing with a young person in the LS1 crowd that just believes whatever the hype of the week is (no disrespect to the LS1 crowd, but this is a generalization of what you will see).

Usually the posts stay relatively civil.

I understood your post, and I didn't see yours as disrespectful. I just get a little aggrivated when someone tells me "it can't be done", or "it's impossible", when we're doing it.
If you have any direct technical questions, i'll try to help you out as much as I can.

Frank
CPT

 

[jakeshoe]

Frank,
Don't take Chris' post personal, he comes across that way online. Talk to him on the phone sometime before you judge. I order 200-4R billet parts from him all the time and talk hydraulics occasionally. He sharp just to the point.

 

[CPT]

Frank,
I'm also aware of the converter clutch design having an affect on the input shaft, and I can definitely see this being a factor. The design of the input drum and various clutch packs all in one assembly causes a large amount of inertia that should work in the drums favor and makes the trans more efficient than other designs.

What are your thoughts on making the drum live and the 3-4 clutches.
Do you sleeve the drum? Cryro? Use a new piece?

Clutch pack selection for the 3-4s?

What are your thoughts on the release springs?

As you've already made light of, a sleeved drum is like a band-aid. We don't cryo. and we don't ALWAYS use a new drum.

We primarily use the Z-Pak in the 3-4's. We just used our last set today. Luckily, we had a huge stock to last us through their redesign. Apparently Raybestos had a problem with the lining/glue combination.

In most cases of a broken input drum, it's been traced back to the converter design or lock-up strategy. If you use a multi disc lockup converter or a converter without a lock-up damper, it puts much more stress on the input drum/shaft. WOT lock-up is also hard on the input drum/shaft.

I advise all of our customers about these things when choosing a converter and tune. Maybe this is why we don't have issues with broken input drums.

The only 4L60E's I've ever seen that blew the snap ring groove out of the 3-4's have been vacuum modulated units. We don't use vacuum modultors, but we've taken many many out, and seen the damage they've done.

We NEVER use any release springs in the 3-4's. They're the major contributor to the 2-3 "bang the limiter" problem, as well as repeated 3-4 clutch failures.

Frank
CPT

 

[jakeshoe]

Frank,
On the vacuum mod system.
If it is causing the snap ring grooves to fail, it is obviously an excessive pressure issue.
Couldn't this be prevented by lowering the max line pressure.
Obviously there is a fine line here between clutches living or not, but it seems to me more damage could be done by a mis-tuned setup (not enough pressure rise on TPS change) than by the vacuum modulator setup.

 

[CPT]

Frank,
On the vacuum mod system.
If it is causing the snap ring grooves to fail, it is obviously an excessive pressure issue.
Couldn't this be prevented by lowering the max line pressure.
Obviously there is a fine line here between clutches living or not, but it seems to me more damage could be done by a mis-tuned setup (not enough pressure rise on TPS change) than by the vacuum modulator setup.

Again...That's like a band-aid on a bullet wound. The EPC works much better than a vacuum modulator. We've seen way too many failures from the vacuum modulators. It's not always just high pressure related, either. It's more like line pressure instabilities. In ALL of the swaps back to an EPC, ALL of our customers have been happier with both shift quality, and longevity. We can't purposely put parts in a transmission that are going to destroy them just because we're afraid that tuning isn't correct. A vacuum modulator will always tear stuff up. It's more rare that the tuning or TPS isn't right.

Frank
CPT

 

[chris718]

no problem frank .your inability to answer the questions shows that you dont have the answers,or have a clue about what im getting at.some dont.that is what this forum is about.use it to your benefit as we all do.your pokes on the website,parts build ups and my fear of the 4l60e dont bother me as they would someone else less qualified.i dont want your"trade secrets"just want some answers to the questions i posed to you in a professional manner.this alone would prove the transmissions capability,and how much research youve done and understanding you have .i did make a mistake however thinking you would respond in a professional manner.ive been guilty of this in the past but we do mature as time goes by.i meant mid 9s not mid tens but i think youve already given me the answer.lets put this on the shelf,your refusal to embrace a professional forum points to a brain not interested in some watering.

 

[chris718]

jake broken input shafts are not the result of lock up as one may be led to believe..a reversal in torque on apply is a parts breaker mainly when reverse rotations between parts is at work before clutch or band apply.the direction of the reverse drum,sunshell and rear sun gear before apply and the rotation of the rear planet combined with bull**** calibrations is the cause.studying the direction of internal component rotation will immediately point this out.

 

[Silver 'T' Top]

Money order got to Scott today, trans did not ship. I will set up with the freight company to get it picked up Monday. I was told it would ship today, per Scott. Per Scott the money order got there too late.

I tried to call Scott back at 4:20 HIS time, no answer on either numbers, called 3 times, I need to confirm he will be there Monday morning at 8 AM for the pickup. Scott call me if you read this.

David

If you read back , he is off on Mondays! And I'll refrain from comment for the moment!

 

[jakeshoe]

jake broken input shafts are not the result of lock up as one may be led to believe..a reversal in torque on apply is a parts breaker mainly when reverse rotations between parts is at work before clutch or band apply.the direction of the reverse drum,sunshell and rear sun gear before apply and the rotation of the rear planet combined with bull**** calibrations is the cause.studying the direction of internal component rotation will immediately point this out.

Chris,
I understand that, but if the converter is locked, on the gear change, then it has to be more brutal on the shaft. We all know this, the 200-4R being an excellent lesson here.
A dampened converter , even locked, might take a bit of hit off the shaft on the gear change.

 

[jakeshoe]

Frank,
On the vacuum modulator setups...
I have a theory as to why they may cause issues.
Vacuum modulated line pressure has worked for years on the older 3 speed units without issue. I do manual/auto Th400s often that are in the 650-800+ HP range and they are living fine (with weekly abuse at the track) despite some other builders claims you must have a full manual VB at these levels.

So the principle is sound, at least for these units.

What I suspect could cause an issue on a high powered, frequently raced, 4L60e with vacuum modulated line, is that at the end of the run, most people will leave it in 3rd, letting it engine brake to decel.
When you let off, the vacuum system drops line to minimum pressure, but in 3rd you must still hold the over-runs and 3-4's for engine braking.
I think the loss of line on decel (high vacuum), causes the clutches to slip.

I haven't looked at the OEM calibration for one in depth yet on decel. I'll do that next time I get a chance.
However I can see the OEM keeping higher line in manual 3rd on hard decel.
The vacuum modulator system would be stupid in this regard because it is running things solely on vacuum, which would be maxed on decel.

So the minimum pressure with the vacuum system would need to be high enough to keep the frictions alive on decel, and yet not so high under zero vacuum condition to cause other issues.

A very good trans guy once taught me to think about the downshift and decel side of things. He said more trans failures are caused by downshifts than upshifts....

 

[FASTFATBOY]

If you read back , he is off on Mondays! And I'll refrain from comment for the moment!

HE told ME on the phone he would send it on MONDAY! Hence the line "Scott if you read this call me"

I already know this.


David

 

[CPT]

no problem frank .your inability to answer the questions shows that you dont have the answers,or have a clue about what im getting at.some dont.that is what this forum is about.use it to your benefit as we all do.your pokes on the website,parts build ups and my fear of the 4l60e dont bother me as they would someone else less qualified.i dont want your"trade secrets"just want some answers to the questions i posed to you in a professional manner.this alone would prove the transmissions capability,and how much research youve done and understanding you have .i did make a mistake however thinking you would respond in a professional manner.ive been guilty of this in the past but we do mature as time goes by.i meant mid 9s not mid tens but i think youve already given me the answer.lets put this on the shelf,your refusal to embrace a professional forum points to a brain not interested in some watering.

Chris,
You're the one who started out with me "unprofessionally". I know the answers, but for some reason we keep getting calls about CK transmissions failing. Funny...You know exactly how everything works, but can't build one to last.
The shop I was at in 1993 did dealership work. We seen these transmissions before anyone else knew what they were. I took the responsibility to learn everything about them. We were also a research and development shop for Sonnax Industries. We developed and produced many of the parts that are now available through Sonnax. We figured out problems that you're still dealing with back then. We don't have clutch failure issues, or broken input drum issues. Our biggest problem was narrowed down to broken output shafts...Until GM came out with the 4L65E shaft. Now we don't break output shafts anymore...Even in cars pulling 1.3 60 ft. times.
So, let me get this straight. Your claim is that you know more technical things than me. This is just plain false. BUT...The more interesting pint is, we're making them hold up, where you can't. If you were the customer, would you rather have a transmission that can "talk the talk", or "walk the walk"? All the techical BS you can throw at these other guys won't get a transmission from the starting line to the finish line in one piece. I don't need to impress anyone with technical BS, we've got 9 second time slips to impress people. That's not being "unprofessional". It's just pointing out the facts. Sorry if the facts hurt your feelings. If you know all the technical points of brain surgery, but you kill every patient on the table, you're not a very good brain surgeon, are you?

Frank
CPT