spooling a T66 turbo with a stock D-5 converter

[Marc87GN]

I wonder if the wastegate solenoid is as effective when bleeding off boost at 20+ psi as it is at stock levels. Also when you upgrade your turbo, will it still be as effective. I would imagine that it is limited in how much boost it can bleed off before the wastgate spring starts getting pushed.

It will be interesting to see if it makes a difference & it will be worth the $45 to test it out to me.

 

[Intercooler]

Infomercial

 

[2QUIK6]

Originally posted by Marc87GN
I wonder if the wastegate solenoid is as effective when bleeding off boost at 20+ psi as it is at stock levels. Also when you upgrade your turbo, will it still be as effective. I would imagine that it is limited in how much boost it can bleed off before the wastgate spring starts getting pushed.

Not sure how effective it is at higher boost settings, but remember its not a straight shot from the actuator to compressor anyway when its bleeding off boost, there's a tiny orifice in the "Y" fitting which already restricts the full boost pressure from hitting the actuator at the same rate boost is climbing, so there is already "lag" (no pun intented) from the boost in the compressor housing and the boost that reaches the actuator.
Wouldn't think the turbo would matter, maybe how well the exhaust housing flows to allow backpressure to escape may come into play. I already have a BstCommander, so if I needed additional pressure bled quicker, I could always run a dual solenoid setup.

And as azgn mentions above, how quick does it allow you to build boost at the line before the tree drops??

 

[Intercooler]

And what kind of brakes are you running to hold 17 PSI? Stock or big shoe?

And what kind of tires to also not go up in smoke at 17 PSI?

Was it 5 seconds to 17 PSI or 5 minutes smoking the converter?

Stock wheel cylinders or S-10's?

Stock motor or highly modded?

 

[SPOT MY 6]

Race Jace, what kind of engine management system does this car have? Timing and a/f ratio have a lot to do with spoolup. Its all in the tune...

 

[bruce]

Maybe this will help illustrate what Jason's talking about.
This is a *stocker*, 206/206 cam, 60 PPH, TA-62, D5 converter.

The SpkF is final spark and saws a little of the launch control, but you can see the car's at ~9 PSI, at 96%TPS when BL (Brakes lights) change state. At ~ 2 MPH it's at 25 PSI of boost.

I've tried a number of Boost Controllers, and so far Jason's has been the only one that'll work as claimed.

Mph Rpm KPa Tps CtsF MatFSpkf BL
0 2300 156 96 161 68 3.5 Y
0 2050 158 96 161 68 10.2 Y
0 1800 135 96 161 68 8.4 Y
0 2000 156 96 161 68 10.2 N
0 2250 158 95 161 68 12.0 N
0 2450 160 88 161 67 13.7 N
0 2600 162 87 161 67 15.5 N
0 2700 166 87 161 67 17.6 N
0 2825 172 80 161 66 19.4 N
1 2975 178 80 161 66 20.8 N
2 3125 185 72 161 66 21.5 N
2 3275 194 65 161 66 21.1 N

FWIW, Jason's experience seems to pretty well line up with what I've seen, and this log file shows.

 

[SPOT MY 6]

bruce-

I dont understand your log. Why is the TPS decreasing? And you are only running 10 degrees of timing at the time of the actual launch (where brake lights shut off)?

 

[Race Jace]

a heavy duty actuator is NOT required to run this boost controller. Unplug the vacuume hose all together and see how much boost you have this will show you that without a boost signal on the diaphram the stock acutator will allow plenty of boost. the exhaust back pressure does not become a problem and begin to open the puck until the mid 20# of intake pressure. (exhaust pressure is usually higher)


Let me give an example, this will show the bennifits of the controller.


car#1 we have the stock setup, with the chip programmed to allow full bleed increasing the boost as much as possable. you typically adjust the boost with WG rod length. When you set the boost at 15 lbs with this system the wastegate starts to open the puck at 3 lbs. it is fully open at 15.

Now we readjust the WG rod to achieve more boost. now we have a max of 20lbs of boost, the WG rod starts to open the boost at 6lbs of boost. you have effectively raised when the WG starts to open the puck but it is still progressive and partially open from 6 to 20 where it is fully open. The WG rod is now short enough where you begin to see some boost creep probably around 2lbs.

Now adjust the WG rod so we have a max of 25lbs of boost. now the WG rod begins to open the puck at around 9lbs.
Now the rod is so short, that you have 18# in first gear, 22 in second and 25 in 3rd because it can only open a little bit. You have raised when the wg begins to open it does spool a little quicker but it is not the most ideal situation.

Car #2 it has one of my boost controllers on it. Set your WG rod so it has about 1/8" of spring preload on the puck. Adjust the controller to 10# of boost. Quick spool up 0-10 because the puck stays closed until 10# of boost.

Adjust the controller to 15#, Quick spool WG puck stays closed 0-15lbs of boost.

Adjust the controller to 20#, Quick spool WG puck stays closed 0-20lbs of boost. no creep

Adjust the controller to 25#, Quick spool WG puck stays closed 0-25lbs of boost. max 1# of creep.

At this point is where the WG rod might need to be shortened past the initial setting to compensate for the back pressure in the exhaust opening the puck. do not shorten the WG rod until you are at the end of the travel on the controller.

I hope this example of the typical behavior of the WG helps to understand what is actually happening under the hood.

Bleeder type controllers = Boost Spikes
When we run bleeder type controllers our experience has been it seems to work ok at the track. you spool up and stablize the lines and launch. on the street when you are rolling down the road and stomp on it the boost goes 5# of boost past where you have it set at for a moment and then settles down to the track setting. serious spikes..

 

[Race Jace]

Originally posted by CallMeMud
And what kind of brakes are you running to hold 17 PSI? Stock or big shoe?

And what kind of tires to also not go up in smoke at 17 PSI?

Was it 5 seconds to 17 PSI or 5 minutes smoking the converter?

Stock wheel cylinders or S-10's?

Stock motor or highly modded?

stock shoes, e-brake, BFG regular radials.
It took about 7-8 sec. you have to remember this is one big turbo for that D-5

the car has a stock engine management with red armstrong 107 chip.

With all of the turbo number games the manufactures are playing the turbo size question was a ligitamate question. lol T66 is between a 70 and a 63.

 

[Otto J]

Jason, You can lead a horse to water,But you cant make em all drink it, (or understand it)
I run my Innovative controller with the co2,and it works the same way as your controller does,I apply closing pressure until opening pressure is aquired,Incredible help in spool up
I spool my GTS 76 to 20#s in 2.2 seconds
That damn fast.

Believe me, What he is saying and explaining works like he said and wiil speed spoolup quite a bit.

 

[Pronto]

How do you find the pressure you want to run? I assume since your bypassing the solenoid that you have no scale back in 3rd and 4th? How do you deal with the extra load in 3rd for street driving?

 

[Otto J]

The spring inside the controller will not scale back without a solenoid,But the spring should keep steady pressure without creep,as is it is pressure differentiated,Just start with the valve set light and tighten it to get more,Safe to start low nad go higher

 

[2QUIK6]

Thanks the the explanation, I think I see the reasoning now.
Does this totally replace any other form of boost controller, or does it simply not allow any boost to reach the actuator until 'X' amount of pressure is in the line?
Could I still use the BstCommand to fine tune boost levels?

 

[Race Jace]

Originally posted by 2QUIK6
Thanks the the explanation, I think I see the reasoning now.
Does this totally replace any other form of boost controller, or does it simply not allow any boost to reach the actuator until 'X' amount of pressure is in the line?
Could I still use the BstCommand to fine tune boost levels?

]

once the pressure setting is reached the controller acts like an open pieci of hose so you can use it with any other form of boost control and benifit frome the quick spool. (IE best of both worlds}

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by SPOT MY 6
bruce-
I dont understand your log. Why is the TPS decreasing? And you are only running 10 degrees of timing at the time of the actual launch (where brake lights shut off)?

It was spinning the tires.
Yes, that was the Launch Control.

And that 25 should have been 15 (I was tired)

 

[Pronto]

2QUIK6, I believe the Boost Controller has a "quick spool" function too. I'll have to reread the instructions (If I remember corrrectly they are not clearly written).

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by Pronto
How do you find the pressure you want to run? I assume since your bypassing the solenoid that you have no scale back in 3rd and 4th? How do you deal with the extra load in 3rd for street driving?

The limit on boost is often the injectors, and fuel/ timing you're running. If you're just running over the counter chips, then the chip sets when the motor is going to detonate. So you have to tune to what the chip will allow. If you have a Translator Plus or ME then you can tune things pretty much to what your car wants.

Cutting back boost is just a simple, way of keeping the motor out of detonation on the high end. IMO, removing some timing as a function of road speed, and adding a little more fuel for time in PE is a better solution. There is code in the chip for adding fuel based on time, thou not many people use it.

 

[2QUIK6]

Originally posted by Pronto
2QUIK6, I believe the Boost Controller has a "quick spool" function too. I'll have to reread the instructions (If I remember corrrectly they are not clearly written).

Yeah, you can controll its "turn on" point. I forget which they recommend for quick spool, either coming on with a real low TPS or real high TPS reading, can't remember which is which, I'm guess low so it will immediately bleed boost off, question is can it bleed enough off to keep the puck closed??

Either way, I just put on a 18# actuator this morning...now I can't get the O2s back in check even at 20# boost and the alky turned way up...not sure whats going on, but I'm heading back out to the garage....

 

[2QUIK6]

Originally posted by Pronto
2QUIK6, I believe the Boost Controller has a "quick spool" function too. I'll have to reread the instructions (If I remember corrrectly they are not clearly written).

Yeah, you can controll its "turn on" point. I forget which they recommend for quick spool, either coming on with a real low TPS or real high TPS reading, can't remember which is which, I'm guess low so it will immediately bleed boost off, question is can it bleed enough off to keep the puck closed??

Either way, I just put on a 18# actuator this morning...now I can't get the O2s back in check even at 20# boost and the alky turned way up...not sure whats going on, but I'm heading back out to the garage....

 

[Quick6'n'-K.C.]

Originally posted by Race Jace
stock shoes, e-brake, BFG regular radials.
It took about 7-8 sec. you have to remember this is one big turbo for that D-5

the car has a stock engine management with red armstrong 107 chip.

With all of the turbo number games the manufactures are playing the turbo size question was a ligitamate question. lol T66 is between a 70 and a 63.

Jason-
i have your valve on a few of my cars and they work great, i bought them 4 months ago and have worked flawlessly!
talk about ZERO spoolup time with a stock turbo and 3500 stall, i just couldnt control the car because the booost would come up too fast. i changed things around a little, and it works great.

That 107 chip is a low timing 18° chip and also doesnt help much with boost building, i used to run it in my car years ago and did the E-brake launch technique too.

The owner of the car might want to get with Eric Marshall and see if Eric can burn a patch in a new chip so the car will spool up EVEN FASTER!!!! i know he does this on some cars, i dont know much about it but get with him to find out.
The 7-8 second spoolup time might be dropped down to 5-6 seconds depending on what magic Eric can do.

i think there is a new combo brewing that everyone should know by now....
A. RJC BLEEDER
B. RAZOR ALKY/METH KIT
C. ERIC MARSHALL CHIP FOR THE ALKY KIT

this will make our cars faster and not one buick guy should be left out
BW