So much for Distributors..... :)

[ttypewe4jim]

Okay from doing some more readying on the "stock" ls1 coils it seems like there good to 700 hp and then the guys are using the "truck" coils I'm trying to find some more info for the truck coils Now here is a question if they are making 700 hp on 8 cylinders what do you think the "stock lsX" coils would be good to on one of our turbo v6's

 

[NJVetteGuy]

Okay from doing some more readying on the "stock" ls1 coils it seems like there good to 700 hp and then the guys are using the "truck" coils I'm trying to find some more info for the truck coils Now here is a question if they are making 700 hp on 8 cylinders what do you think the "stock lsX" coils would be good to on one of our turbo v6's

Still using the stock coils on my friend Kenny's 9 second turbo GTO. The stock coils/ignition were fine at 1100+ RWHP on a friend's TT C5 also, just standard C5 LS1/LS6 coils.

 

[ttypewe4jim]

Still using the stock coils on my friend Kenny's 9 second turbo GTO. The stock coils/ignition were fine at 1100+ RWHP on a friend's TT C5 also, just standard C5 LS1/LS6 coils.

Yea I fergot to update agian reading more and more info it seems like the stock coils would be totaly fine for us Im thinking about going to the junkyard tomarrow and geting a single coil then start making the wiring harness I honestly think that would be the worst part of this project making the wiring harness (caspers do I see a kit coming )

 

[SPEEDSTAR]

Just as a FWIW, just what igntion system did they use on the Buick Indy Car Program engines?.

This is right out of the Buick Stage II V6 Performance Guide;From the puplishers of Hot Rod Magazine, by Jim McFarland; Indy Innovation For The Eighties,....page 2;

You may also see there is no ignition distributor on this engine. In its place is a heavy -duty version of the computer controled ignition system[CCCI] that is used on the 1984 turbocharged V6 Buicks. Without further elaboration we can say that the efforts of Buick to produce components and technology that will allow a turbocharged V6 to be competitive in the category of " Indy cars" appears quite serious, [end of quote.] ....And also there is a picture on page 3 of the front of an Indy Buick V6, and the caption reads; Heres the three window spark ignition trigger wheel mounted on the crankshaft damper,[end of quote], and there is a stock crank pick-up that looks just like the ones we run today......WOW, and on page 2 it shows the coil-pack and module, it looks like the nascar version.

 

[odell4o8]

I dont really care what the hot rod mag, said the three complete indy 500 buick engines that i bought had distributors. they wasnt like the msd that nascar used, if any dought ask kendall i give him a complete indy ignition system distributor. these engines i bought were all oddfire and offcenter, they come from brayton enterprises one of them had manard stamped on it, the indy lite engines used a coil pack like a factory 86, 87 turbo car, just my 002% oc,

 

[CTX-SLPR]

Just to jump in here but would it be safe to say that the stock ignition works well but isn't the best. A distributor offers a non-wastespark setup that could give performance advantages but requires a aftermarket ECM and bracket trickery to work. A CNP system offers the advantage of a non-wastespark system and shorter wires (all wires have resistance) and the advantage of idividual cylinder timing but requires a very fancy ECM to run.
Too bad I can't afford a MoTec M600 for my own uses so I think I'm going to be using the Accel 300 boxes trick on a Type II integrated into my OBDII L67 computer system unless I can get that to run CNP stuff.

 

[Race Jace]

from what i hear there is significant benifit from eliminating the waste spark. Added hp is just one of the benifits.

• Stock (Type I) or Type II DIS or Distributor allowed

according to the TSM rules the it appears the CNP is not legal only distributors or type 1 or 2.

 

[bruce]

Just to jump in here but would it be safe to say that the stock ignition works well but isn't the best. A distributor offers a non-wastespark setup that could give performance advantages but requires a aftermarket ECM and bracket trickery to work. A CNP system offers the advantage of a non-wastespark system and shorter wires (all wires have resistance) and the advantage of idividual cylinder timing but requires a very fancy ECM to run.
Too bad I can't afford a MoTec M600 for my own uses so I think I'm going to be using the Accel 300 boxes trick on a Type II integrated into my OBDII L67 computer system unless I can get that to run CNP stuff.

While there's alot of WhoShootJohn over resistance, things change somewhat as you get into the 10,000s voltages. Circle Track Magazine some years ago did a comparo, of plug wires of the ultra low, vs RFI types and found virturally no difference. The article was kind of funny to read, reading between the lines it seems that ---ogy was the one that suggested testing their wires, and there was no power found.


No you can add the code for individual cyl timing, and fuel corrections to even the stock ecm, as far as not running out of processing power. While you'll only have a single EST line, for the timing, a decoder on the coil end, could sort things out, ie an eDist.

 

[bruce]

I dont really care what the hot rod mag, said the three complete indy 500 buick engines that i bought had distributors. they wasnt like the msd that nascar used, if any dought ask kendall i give him a complete indy ignition system distributor. these engines i bought were all oddfire and offcenter, they come from brayton enterprises one of them had manard stamped on it, the indy lite engines used a coil pack like a factory 86, 87 turbo car, just my 002% oc,

Then, that would mean they used both.

 

[CTX-SLPR]

No you can add the code for individual cyl timing, and fuel corrections to even the stock ecm, as far as not running out of processing power. While you'll only have a single EST line, for the timing, a decoder on the coil end, could sort things out, ie an eDist.

Hmmm... Interesting... Well since the Powertuner really doesn't let you edit the code as much as adjust parameters I think I'm best going with the tri-300 box idea. Just out of side note, is a Type II that I can use with my stock ECM the same as the on on the OBDII L67 cars or it a different module and such?

P.S. you have a PM Bruce

Thanks,

 

[Rosewood T-Type]

i'm reviving this thread because i'm in need of this technology my car is making 600 to tires and starting to break up at about 5500 after warm up and dont really want to buy new cp and ccci.
Please help me bruce.
do i really need edist or can i just make harness for stock ccci connector to cnp?
Bruce i really need your help.

 

[CHANCE]

yhea really bruce can we get instructions on how to build the harness and all the parts we need

 

[Fuelie600]

i'm reviving this thread because i'm in need of this technology my car is making 600 to tires and starting to break up at about 5500 after warm up and dont really want to buy new cp and ccci.
Please help me bruce.
do i really need edist or can i just make harness for stock ccci connector to cnp?
Bruce i really need your help.

You shouldn't need to bail on the stock set up just yet. I would look at plug gaps, plug wires, plug type/heat range, coil condition, fueling, and valve train. Something is not as it should be. Bruces set up is very good -- no doubt, but I think you are fine with the set up you have, if everything is up to snuff. Brian

 

[Ormand]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned dwell time. Most distributors have only one coil. That means the coil must fire three time each engine rev. The stock DIS has three coils, each coil fires once per rev. At some rpm, the single coil just won't get fully saturated (charged up), and won't provide full voltage. To some extent, that's offset by having all six plugs firind with normal polarity, instead of three normal, three reverse. But when you go to six coils, then all six are firing in the "forward" direction. Each one is firing once per engine rev, I guess, so it's still not quite up the coil-on-plug systems used on the newer cars- but surely better than a distributor with a single coil.

 

[CTX-SLPR]

... Each one is firing once per engine rev...

Each coil is only firing ever 2 revs, you just castrated the motor into a 2 stroke. Easy mistake to make. I'd honestly like to see signal inputs that the stock or Type II module uses and an ignition module from a 3.5L DOHC Shortstar use as the Northstars also use CNP I believe.

 

[norbs]

Going to a distributor is alot of work. HOpefully the car will pickup. PLease read my distributor install threads in the stage II section to see whats all involved.

 

[Ormand]

Each coil is only firing ever 2 revs

The waste spark system uses three coils to fire six cylinders. Every engine revolution, three cylinders will fire (usually), so every engine rev, each coil will fire. The "extra" spark is wasted- maybe why they call this "waste spark ignition"? Surely a physicist knows that. :wink:

 

[CTX-SLPR]

The waste spark system uses three coils to fire six cylinders. Every engine revolution, three cylinders will fire (usually), so every engine rev, each coil will fire. The "extra" spark is wasted- maybe why they call this "waste spark ignition"? Surely a physicist knows that. :wink:

Right, but the comment was about having 6 coils with one per cylinder so that the dwell time was doubled. As our current system works you are correct 1 spark/rev, if you went to individual coils, 1 spark per 2 revs.
Doing some research on the 3.5L CNP setup it looks like it uses a toothed wheel in the crank (just like a Northstar) to calculate crank angle. A TEC-3 wheel might beable to be adapted to provide the same signal to the modules, there are seperate ones per bank, and then the ECM timing signal adapted to run the required timing. I'm looking into integrating this into my L67 computer conversion or possibly working with an aftermarket supplier for a kit that will be intended for the L67 GTP and Regal GS guys but since I'm using the same computer system be workable on the LC2 if I can get all the pieces sorted out.