NON LOCK CONVERTER DRIVEABILITY?

[Pronto]

hey I have a toof to eat wit. then I give it back to da dog

I found your dentures, someone made a bracelet out of them.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Very informative post.

You said your custom steel stator allows you to get the 9.5's to a higher brake stall, I know stall speed is based on weight and tq, but take a common setup like a 6262 with a mild cam making mid 500 tq with one of your 3000rpm nl's that has a foot brake stall of 3000rpm, what would a setup like this stall on a trans brake? Also what is the process or formula used among converter builders to determine true stall speed off a trans brake? Is true stall off the brake rated for 250ftlbs and every 100ftlbs over 250 raisies true stall up 200 rpm?

The initial flash stall of a turbo converter will depend on the torque the engine makes. A typical v6 will go 2800-3000 at the first wack of the throttle.

On the trans brake any turbo converter will continue to climb rpm as long as a 2 step isn't holding it back, a boost controller limits the boost or it reaches full boost and sees its full flash rpm. Seeing how high it can go is not a good idea. A typical Buick converter will stall over 5000 rpm if the engine was allowed continue building boost. The reason for this is more boost generates more torque, that torque will raise the stall speed, then the extra rpm will make more boost......this just continues until your boost quits rising. The true flash stall of the converter is the rpm the engine falls back to on the gear change. You may have an initial stall of 3000 rpm and a flash stall of 5000.

There are far to many variables to calculate the stall off the brake. Weight, gear, torque curve, tire size, converter feed pressure all effect what happens when the car launches off the brake. It's also not a linear curve due to the design of the converter. Different fin angles and stator designs can shift the way it flashes and and couples up and down the entire rpm range.


Posted from the TurboBuick.Com mobile app

 

[TURBOPOWERED68]

NO I don't.. Enlighten me

well 21 years playing with TRs and you have 9 second slips thats super cool just don't expect dumb
newbs (like me) to accomplish what you accomplished in just 7 years.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

lmao

 

[robzombie]

I'm not getting into a pissing match. I'm just keeping all the bs you've been told and continue to spew in check.

I'll itemize these so you can answer them in order. It's clear you know nothing about converters so anyone can tell you a line of bs and you don't know any different.

So your saying a single disc 9.5 Lu converter can hold 1500 hp while locked? Let us hear the names of those who have done this. Holding 1500 hp unlocked is possible for a single disc, locked is another story.

Do you know what makes a converter billet and what it's advantage is?

I want the part number off the converter he "improved on" copied or whatever. There is a 10" NLU from PTC that measures 9.5 that costs 475. I do not call it a 9.5 to eliminate confusion but if a "converter guy" looked at it he'd call it a 9.5 as its the same core as the Vigilante, yank etc...if he improved on it then you can still get my part number off the converter.

There is nothing special about any converter out there. It's just a combination of parts that achieve a stall speed. Those who can't figure it out on their own copy those who do. Guess which category your guy fits in...

So from what I gather he took a PTC which was most likely to tight for the combo, loosened so it was more optimal for the combo and it ran faster. Yea that's ground breaking stuff that's never been done before. We probably ship 10 of those restalled converters from other manufacturers daily. With data from a running car things can often be improved on.


Posted from the TurboBuick.Com mobile app

Answers in order

Yes it can hold the power locked and is doing so on a 1,200hp application without any issues.

Only the parts that are used in the making of said converter. But the most important part in mine is the one piece billet damper with no springs to break or get weak and provides a lock up feel comparable to a 1/2 shift which in my case is instant while engaging which keeps the clutch from over heating and wearing it out, also the clutch has more surface area and is made of carbon and therefore can hold more power at higher power levels than in the past.

I don't have the part# of said converter but it isn't one of the cheap PTC converters, he paid over one thousand for it.

He didn't improve that actual PTC converter but looked at what was in that one and built his own converter, not using the PTC nissan core or opel technology parts it contains which is what the PTC uses and has it's own limitations.

Like I said in the past though he has reworked other PTC converters.

I will start my own thread to stop the high jacking of this one and explain what the differences are and why the PTC is not the best converter out there.

I know this will create a hornets nest, as the PTC crowd is very defensive of that converter, but I will try to stay to the facts and not pollute the thread with opinions or sarcasm and expect others to show the same respect.

I'm up for an honest debate and also want the TR community to have the very best parts available to them at an affordable cost.

RZ

 

[tonka]

For a real world example of 9.5 NLU mileage, most of this was done at 78 mph on interstate yesterday except for 35miles on a hilly 2 lane road at 70 mph , car loaded down pretty heavy. All I could put in was 12.47 gallons when I filled it, odometer recorded 260 miles, pretty close to what the software calculated.

 

[20psiofevil]

Link thread please. Very interested in following this debate.

 

[bison]

Answers in order

Yes it can hold the power locked and is doing so on a 1,200hp application without any issues.

Only the parts that are used in the making of said converter.

I don't have the part# of said converter but it isn't one of the cheap PTC converters, he paid over one thousand for it.

He didn't improve that actual PTC converter but looked at what was in that one and built his own converter, not using the PTC nissan core or opel technology parts it contains which is what the PTC uses and has it's own limitations.

Like I said in the past though he has reworked other PTC converters.

I will start my own thread to stop the high jacking of this one and explain what the differences are and why the PTC is not the best converter out there.

I know this will create a hornets nest, as the PTC crowd is very defensive of that converter, but I will try to stay to the facts and not pollute the thread with opinions or sarcasm and expect others to show the same respect.

I'm up for an honest debate and also want the TR community to have the very best parts available to them at an affordable cost.

RZ

First you have to prove it's better. Trust us. Once you do that we will be all ears. After that peoples opinions don't matter. Then you can start a thread as to why it's better. If I see you start a thread that doesnt prove your claims it will likely get re-named and or locked. You have yet to prove anything.

 

[robzombie]

I will do exactly what I said.

I will tell what parts are in a PTC and what parts are in his converter.

I will explain the weakness and strength of each design.

Dusty and any other reputable converter builders will be able to tell if I'm talking BS or not.

Let's just see if it stays honest, because that's all I'm looking for and that's what the TR community deserves.

 

[Pronto]

Waiting with bated breath.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Answers in order

Yes it can hold the power locked and is doing so on a 1,200hp application without any issues.

Only the parts that are used in the making of said converter. But the most important part in mine is the one piece billet damper with no springs to break or get weak and provides a lock up feel comparable to a 1/2 shift which in my case is instant while engaging which keeps the clutch from over heating and wearing it out, also the clutch has more surface area and is made of carbon and therefore can hold more power at higher power levels than in the past.

I don't have the part# of said converter but it isn't one of the cheap PTC converters, he paid over one thousand for it.

He didn't improve that actual PTC converter but looked at what was in that one and built his own converter, not using the PTC nissan core or opel technology parts it contains which is what the PTC uses and has it's own limitations.

Like I said in the past though he has reworked other PTC converters.

I will start my own thread to stop the high jacking of this one and explain what the differences are and why the PTC is not the best converter out there.

I know this will create a hornets nest, as the PTC crowd is very defensive of that converter, but I will try to stay to the facts and not pollute the thread with opinions or sarcasm and expect others to show the same respect.

I'm up for an honest debate and also want the TR community to have the very best parts available to them at an affordable cost.

RZ

I appreciate the answers.

To clear up the first answer. Locking up and holding 1200hp is one thing. Having a converter that can hold 1200hp unlocked that has part throttle lock-up capability is another. Your still limited in clutch area with a small 9.5 core unless your going multi disc.

So your saying this single disc coverter is locking up 1200hp at WOT? That's 8 second power through a single disc.

The kit your speaking of is available to anyone who wants to use it. I have repaired and replaced them in the past on cars locking them at WOT at much less than 1200hp. I'll have to disagree that it's holding that power locked at WOT.

Every converter has it's limitations. That's why were not all using a 10.5 core....we could never spool it with a small motor.

So far all you have done is compare the lock-up capability of your converter to a $500 PTC converter. I have known for years that the PTC's lock-up capability isn't the best out there. My reasoning to stick with the standard backing plate and lock-up clutch is this:

I can build the "billet" lock-up converter for an additional price. It still will not hold WOT lock-up in a 10 second car for any extended amount of time. So when a converter that costs at least an additional $175 is no more efficient unlocked and can't take pro-longed WOT lock-up abuse than a cheaper converter.....what's the use in spending extra money. WOT lock-up isnt required in 11 second and slower car because the converter has no problem maintaining good efficiency at that power level. The debate of the lock-up is a non issue until you cross into the 10's. Most of my customers with an 11 second or slower car stick with the lock-up.

You initially claimed, or so I thought, your builder opened up a 9.5 PTC, restalled it and the guy picked up 2 tenths. Now your saying he didn't use that PTC but instead copied it. If he did't need to copy it there would have been no reason to open it up to (look inside). He would have just started from scratch with his own ideas. So just looking over all these posts, said builder has said there's nothing special about them, his are better yet he had to open one up and use what he learned to build his own. Remember this same builder has taken 3 times to perfect yours. I also remember in the beginning you coming to me and Bison for advice on how it should stall.

There's a reason I have not pursued any other lock-up converter tech. The non lock 9.5 PTC cruises so well that 99.9% of the people never miss lock-up. There's no TCC issues to worry about. By getting rid of the TCC system there are no worries about the solenoid crapping out and taking out the trans and/or converter. For the very small % of people out there who want a 10 second or faster car and still retain lock-up there are 2 converters that already fill that need. The multi-disc and the 9x11. I may have actually hurt myself from a business point of view. Everytime a TCC wipes out the clutch I get paid to repair it and the trans builders get paid to refresh the trans. With the non lock it's truely the last converter the customer will ever have to buy. They can't out grow it's capabilities, there's no sprag to break and it doesn't generate enough heat to need one. It's core is used in the fastest turbo small block's and V6's in the world so its proven to withstand well over 2000 hp without failure for years. It is used on cars ranging from 12 second daily drivers to Duttweiler/Gallina's 6 second car. I was a customer and Buick owner long before I discovered this piece that has changed the entire racing and street scene. I have owned other's. Spent money on repairs from TCC failure, grown my combination outside the limitations of a lock-up converter and all of that has lead to where the non lock is what I prefer to use for 10 second and faster cars.

 

[we4Mateo]

...Let's just see if it stays honest, because that's all I'm looking for and that's what the TR community deserves.

You are right and like Bison stated, show logs, data, timeslips, whatever! You'll quickly gain a good following and help this guy sell TONS of converters. Until then, you have nothing. And I mean that as nicely as possible, but it's a matter of talking and doing. SHOW us the way.

 

[bison]

I will do exactly what I said.

I will tell what parts are in a PTC and what parts are in his converter.

I will explain the weakness and strength of each design.

Dusty and any other reputable converter builders will be able to tell if I'm talking BS or not.

Let's just see if it stays honest, because that's all I'm looking for and that's what the TR community deserves.

Yeah. Lets just see if it stays honest. Post up the performance and reliability of your converter. First you can post up the data that evaluates the performance. Im sure that will gather some opinions. We will see how reliable it is or isnt over time. Dont even waste your time posting pics of the insides of converters until you have proven that your converter is better in both performance and reliability. 99% of the people reading have no clue about what does what in a converter and all they want is a product that performs and lasts. Like the product that PTC offers in their 9.5". If you want to post up pics of converters and get technical about what does what and why something could possibly be better than another design you can go ahead but the converters need to be proven to not be reliable or unreliable and saying this one will fail prematurely because of this has to be proven also. Its like saying you have a bullet resistant vest that is better than another. Yet you havent taken one hit in either one to say yes this one definitely this one is definitely a better design and i am better protected because this other one allowed x round to penetrate at x velocity and this one stopped it under the same condittons. The burden of proof is on you at this point. We arent concerned with reliability of PTC's 9.5". There are hundreds out there that have run the number and stood the test of time well over 1000hp too. You need to prove your converters reliability for sure though and its performance. Especially when being locked at 1000+hp repeatedly. We are a little worried about your converters reliability since we havent seen anything proving anything yet except a bunch of internet spew.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

As with anything on the net, results are proven over time. Had I not put a converter in Otto's car years ago it would have been hard to convince anyone. Everyone saw the immediate gains for a converter that wasn't even dialed in for his combo so it was easy to believe.

Lets just say this new converter can hold 1000hp locked and withstand it for the long term. There is already a converter out there proven to do so.....the Vigilante. I also have a triple disc that I build for 1000+hp boosted pro touring cars and turbo LS trucks. Even if this converter can take this kind of power while locked it's not doing anything that hasn't been done. I have recommended numerous customers to Precision for the Vigilante if I feel they will benefit from a converter that can stand WOT lock's.

RZ and Grumpy obviously favor a lock-up for their own reasons. Most who have made the swap say they will never go back to a lock-up after seeing and feeling the difference. I was one of those guys years ago.

 

[bison]

Had I not put a converter in Otto's car years ago it would have been hard to convince anyone. Everyone saw the immediate gains for a converter that wasn't even dialed in for his combo so it was easy to believe.

I remember that day. It changed my thinking about converters instantly. That converter was too tight for that engine (or it wasnt getting enough thrown at it) and it still was light years better than what was in there.

 

[robzombie]

You initially claimed, or so I thought, your builder opened up a 9.5 PTC, restalled it and the guy picked up 2 tenths. Now your saying he didn't use that PTC but instead copied it. If he did't need to copy it there would have been no reason to open it up to (look inside). He would have just started from scratch with his own ideas. So just looking over all these posts, said builder has said there's nothing special about them, his are better yet he had to open one up and use what he learned to build his own. Remember this same builder has taken 3 times to perfect yours. I also remember in the beginning you coming to me and Bison for advice on how it should stall.

Yes he has opened more than one, not all from TR's though. I never said he restalled the PTC and went 2/10ths quicker, if so that was typed wrong by me or misread by you.

The reason for looking at the inside of this particular TR converter was not to copy it but to see what is being used in a high dollar converter that he would be competing against.
The answer was that the only thing custom in that converter was the 17 blade stator which he says is a good piece, everything else is off the shelf parts period. He even thinks the hub is a regular 27 spline 200r4 but can't confirm it for sure as it is covered by the anti-ballon plate.

Yes it has taken three re stalls, but one was of my choice because I changed my combo. I was one of the first TR's he has done and yes there is a learning curve that he's going through. He has done more TR's and of varying HP levels since mine was done and is working closely with his customers and using feedback to get them right the first time out of the box. Being able to build a better converter than PTC in such a short amount of time working with TR's is a testament to his dedication and commitment to give TR owners what the owners of fords, chevys and mopars are getting for numbers.

Yes I came to you and Brian for advice, that's what this board is for. I also almost bought a PTC but the lead time was longer than I expected and I also didn't want to go the NLU route that was recommended by you,and I did more research and although I had to wait longer [due to trans problems] and have my converter restalled a couple times it paid off in the long run, please tell me that you can get a PTC right on the money every time or that they are perfect and never have issues like bad welds etc ??

I would love for you to state all the special parts and bearing tolerances or any part/s and any machine work that makes the PTC a converter better than what the big boys like transmission specialties or the small guys that custom machine parts and yes even off the shelf parts which aren't perfect or in spec are offering.

You keep asking me for proof of why I think the converter I'm using is better than a PTC, let's show and tell the general public what parts are inside both converters and how they're built and to what tolerances [bearings and so forth] so they can have an idea of what goes into each one and be able to justify the costs and performance levels of each companies product.


There are other converters out there, and one of the advantages for PTC is that you and Brian amongst a few others with a finacial stake in them[middle men] is that you tell them [PTC]want combo to build for your customer that orders one from you. Please don't take this the wrong way, I just think you would be more objective if you had only knowledge to gain from this debate.

I'm just saying that if a PTC works as well as you and others say, then imagine how much more is still on the table when it comes to converter technology with all the new stuff that's out there and being utilized by others while the PTC is only using a custom stator parts wise, or is there anything else special that you can share with the world that makes it perform better than any one elses .


RZ

 

[we4Mateo]

^^^^^^^That's a very long post to state nothing, or at least nothing more than what you already "stated". Show us a slip! Show us a log! If it works, I'm sure there are pioneers out there waiting to try it! I ALWAYS get excited about new stuff for our cars. I'm also excited b/c the best is always getting better, but you need to PROVE it.

 

[robzombie]

As with anything on the net, results are proven over time. Had I not put a converter in Otto's car years ago it would have been hard to convince anyone. Everyone saw the immediate gains for a converter that wasn't even dialed in for his combo so it was easy to believe.

Yes I agree with you and on that front the PTC has the advantage in the TR arena over what I'm running.

Time and results will show what this type of converter [LU] is capable of. I'm not trying to go against an NLU in a race car but a street driven 10 second or slower car that pulls track duty as well.

 

[norbs]

Sorry, I skimmed some of this thread who's single disc lockup can hold 1200 hp? I know of a few ones on the market, average price is between $7000-8000. Please go into more detail...

 

[Pronto]

Why don't you take the evening off and compose a new thread and put in real details including the name of person manufacturing these magic converters. Put in pictures of the inner parts. Put in the high hp cars that have that lu converter in it. I want to see dyno numbers, time slips and videos of this converter working. Not hard to do if these new converters are all you say....