NON LOCK CONVERTER DRIVEABILITY?
- Thread starter tford
- Start date
robzombie
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2012
I don't live in Texas where the roads are as flat as glass. I have hills and don't like the RPM creep [added heat in the fluid/ and higher RPMs which hurt mileage] that comes with a NLU.
I put 100 miles a day on my car and therefore chose what I chose because if I can get the performance and the mileage in one converter why go NLU.
Lets say I put on 8/10,000 street miles a year and 10 miles a 1/4 mile at a time, why would I go NLU if making less than 800/1000 HP.
robzombie
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2012
I'm with you on that, except I feel like this is big brother and I'm getting voted off the island. LOL
Dusty Bradford
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
If all you want is a lock up that can go 10's why didn't you just buy a 9x11 or Vigilante?
I do have several customers in the mid to low 10's with my single disc lock up who run unlocked at the track and use lock up for the street. It's not what I'd advise but its what they wanted to buy. Just because I don't suggest it, doesn't mean it's not possible.
Bottom line. They are no special parts in any converter. Every piece converter shops use is bought from a supplier and then tweaked to make it behave like it needs to in the final assembly. You have to turn everything in a lathe to true up each individual piece. Even the aftermarket pumps and turbines available are all of OE design. It's the work that goes into making one behave the way we want it that sets it apart from others. The spacing between the stator and turbine can change the stall, the thickness of the stator can change the stall. Some converters may have 5% slip and stall 3000 rpm while another may only stall 2400 to achieve the same slip. The better converter will stall more down low without giving up slip up top in the turbo world. Anyone with the right tools can build a converter simply by ordering the right parts.....it's the combination of parts that set all of the, apart. PTC has a method and combination for building small ci turbo converters that happen to out perform everything else out there. Neil Chance has the blower and nitrous pro mod market.
The hub is a hardened hub. Yes some have had a leak and a bad weld. Considering how many are out there, any issue is possible. I do get the stall right majority of the time. If not I offer a free restall to correct it for them.
A converter is simply nothing more than a fluid pump. There are no high tech components used to make the fluid move. I have had to restall converters where I was told it had some type of high tech billet stator. I'm imagining some high tech machined piece with contoured wings and complicated angles....it was nothing more than a standard cast stator. Bottom line is in the stall and efficiency. Everything else is smoke and mirrors.
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Post a log of any car going up a hill at 50mph, what's the point. A lockup won't even stay locked with that load.
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I want to see how it drives..that's all
SCOOBY DOO
BASED CANADIAN PATRIOT!!
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2007
Why don't you tell us how yours drives. Oh...that's right...yours doesn't run.
Mine does! It'll make 2psi at that speed and climb, slowly, any hill around here with the TC locked, 7% grade or so, and eventually build more boost as it picks up speed, all be it slowly. Sorry, no logs! I should take my own advice on posting data but I just use a SM. I guess I could take a video of the dash if my #2 cylinder wasn't dead. Oh well, that's at least a little data for this thread even if yet unproven...
You guys are to nice to each otherI was mistaken mateo, I was thinking back when I had a lockup, the trans would downshift to 2nd on a steep hill releasing the lockup.
turboc87gn
Darkside in Detroit
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2008
Its not always about the $$$ or who has a stake in selling ptc converters people like them because they WORK..... When i called dusty and gave him the part number off the converter i bought from a friend new in the box he said that will work perfect for your goals end of story he didnt tell me to send it in to be looked at or gone over or restalled or try to sell me on anything else...He gave me honest answers and talked to me for like a half hour even though he wasnt making a cent....For that i will always send business his direction...If your guy has a product that works and it can be proven to do so people will buy it and the more satisfied customers you get the more it will snowball....
This is just personal opinion. Nothing against anyone or any product. I have owned 3 PTC converters from Dusty. All did thier job and did it well. The lastest one behind the TH350 is perfect. Fastest I have been with more left in it. I am just a loyal PTC/Dusty customer. If something else comes along that performs thats great. Gives some guys choices.
Dusty Bradford
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
Here's a good example of what's possible with the lock up converter I offer. He did decide he wanted to go non lock but for the AOD we had to use the same 10" core used for my single disc lock up. It's a 10" lock up minus the clutch. The lock up could have been used for cruising but he didn't want it.
http://www.musclemustangfastfords.c...rd_mustang_coupe_1000_horsepower/viewall.html
Driven 1000 miles one way to the track, clicked off an 8.6 and then on to the next race. The reason he wanted to do away with the clutch was simply because he wanted to eliminate any possible failure point. He could have went billet lock up, multi disc lock up but the possibility is still there for a failure. He came to us because of our history making a spragless converter streetable. A spragless non lock up is simply the toughest, least likely to fail unit on the market.
The reason a lock up type core is able to work in this application is because of his rpm range and the v8's ability to spool a good sized turbo. The v6 is an entirely different animal which is why I steer the faster cars towards the 9.5 non lock. It's simply the best spooling converter that can couple very well in the Buicks operating range. Just because I don't suggest a lock up converter for a customer doesn't mean it can't get the job done, its because from my Buick experience there are better options out there. It has everything to do with the customers intended use and their overall goals.
Posted from the TurboBuick.Com mobile app
http://www.musclemustangfastfords.c...rd_mustang_coupe_1000_horsepower/viewall.html
Driven 1000 miles one way to the track, clicked off an 8.6 and then on to the next race. The reason he wanted to do away with the clutch was simply because he wanted to eliminate any possible failure point. He could have went billet lock up, multi disc lock up but the possibility is still there for a failure. He came to us because of our history making a spragless converter streetable. A spragless non lock up is simply the toughest, least likely to fail unit on the market.
The reason a lock up type core is able to work in this application is because of his rpm range and the v8's ability to spool a good sized turbo. The v6 is an entirely different animal which is why I steer the faster cars towards the 9.5 non lock. It's simply the best spooling converter that can couple very well in the Buicks operating range. Just because I don't suggest a lock up converter for a customer doesn't mean it can't get the job done, its because from my Buick experience there are better options out there. It has everything to do with the customers intended use and their overall goals.
Posted from the TurboBuick.Com mobile app
haywire4130
Active Member
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2010
i have a dusty/ptc 9.5 non lock in my car. it does everything he said it would, plain and simple. i actually upgraded from an art carr 9" non lock and the difference in coupling at speed is night and day! WOT rpms are kept right in the sweet spot and the car pulls and pulls where it before would blow right through the art carr. cruise rpms on the highway are about 300 rpm lower than before. i would never go to a lockup after experiencing this converter, the hype is true. was it expensive? of course, everything for these cars is! the stall speed and manners are exactly what i wanted-first try, i feel it was worth every penny.
robzombie
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2012
From the builder of my converter.
First and foremost let me advise that my responses’ are not intended to solicit any business from this forum or to negate any vendor or participants reputation. I have read the Policy Notice on Turbo Buick and must say that you gentleman operate an outstanding information forum for the Buick Turbo Enthusiast.
I am a friend of Rob’s and yes I built his converter and will be better equipped to respond to the majority of the questions fielded. To qualify myself, although I will remain silent as a personality, I am a Torque Converter Builder that is the sole owner of a shop that has been in business since 1971. My resume would include working for three of the top race converter builders and then coming up in the ranks of the remanufacturing business. I helped clients set up converter shops on four occasions and managed a high volume re manufacturing shop that supplies the transmission industry in a three state area with a comeback ratio of less than 2%. Currently, my own shop runs at a ½ percent return ratio. There are very few of us left that are hands on from A to Z. Additionally, I consult for auto manufactures and part suppliers on an as needed contract basis.
That said, let’s move on to the first question that seemed to cause a variety of input and opinion that never seemed to help the member with his question. Members, please take note that the more information that you provide with your question the easier it is for others advise, enthusiasts like Rob and Professionals like Dusty to respond with intelligent concrete advice, hopefully with the driving motivation to be of some help.
1. If I change to a non-lock converter, how is the driveability compared to a lock up? I'm guessing it will not be as drastic of a change compared to 200r4 to th350 trans swap. Is it true going to a non-lock is more reliable and lowers the chances of having problems? For example, list rpm (cruising) at 75 mph with non-lock vs. same speed with lock up converter. What about rebuild prices? Is one cheaper to rebuild than the other? Thanks, Tim
Well Tim, Rob was correct in stating that it depends on your intended purpose for this car. A converter builder should always inquire as to the intended purpose, (street, street/strip, bracket racing, etc.) and the time spent in each category. Ultimately, we want to proved a piece or product that meets your needs as close as possible. The driveability concern can only be answered by the quality of the product. For instance, you can buy a non lock up converter that uses a lock up eliminator kit and your performance would be drastically lower than that of a quality non lock up converter that runs in a busing and on three bearings. The same factors apply to a lock up converter which I will cover later. For the most part “QUIP 6” was correct with his RPM response of 500 RPM. Take any lock up converter to a cruising speed of 65 MPH (Not that anyone in here would violate the law otherwise) and while maintaining a constant speed step on the brake with your other foot and you will see the rpm drop 300-500 depending on the quality of the converter. This takes the converter out of the intended 1:1 ratio with the motor and allows the converters original efficiency rating to prevail.
A. If you are primarily on the street such as a daily driver and fuel mileage comes to play then a good performance lock up unit such as a street/strip kit would be the best choice. These units can be a lot of fun for the consumer, allow the converter builder to get more aggressive with the build, and still provide the dependability of lock up for a long trip by taking the converter out of play.
B. If your street/strip it would depend upon how much time at the strip and whether you are utilizing a trans brake. I build a lot of the fore mentioned kits for street/strip guys on a budget which is another factor to be considered. If every weekend is spent at the strip for points and the car is driven daily otherwise I would recommend a quality non lock up unit (no clutch eliminator kits) due to the fact that the vehicle will experience more launches. However, that is not to say that a Full Billet Lock Up Converter will not run just as well and still provide dependability, generate lower heat, and provide higher gas mileage when needed. To date, the all bearing non lock up converter will always slightly outperform the lock-up with e.t and mph. I speaking of the same two converters here (same core and stall). The reason is that a non lock up can achieve efficiency ratings of 98 percent if properly built. A good Full Billet Converter will run two percent off that pace. However, at 75 mph and a 2 percent slip ratio you will still be generating some form of heat compared to a lock up converter.
C. Strip Only would benefit from the non lock up units that are built with three bearings running in a bushing. Especially, those cars using a transbrake. Speaking to that issue, a good sprag-less converter is the way to go. Remember Billet Covers are a better choice if your budget allows it. The billet cover will be a one piece cnc unit perfectly balance and stronger that any factory housing with an anti balloon plate. If you can not go this route then look for a piece that distribute torque evenly such as the balloon plate with built in bolt pattern or the cnc ring converter with the pilot properly set to serve as a anti balloon stop. Both pieces work well, however my preference is the latter due to weight concerns.
However, when someone develops the Billet Lock Up Converter that rides on three bearings and the transmission builders revisit lock up under peak spool like the Dodge Diesel Boys are doing then we are talking a whole different game.
Hope this helps Tim, now it is time to explore which core is best suited to serve your needs. Then again, many factors come into play. It really gets tricky at this point. Now we have to look at tire size, weight of vehicle, gear ratio, torque production and your turbo set up. Additionally, the same factors for driving habits and intended used come to play.
Rob and I explored every option before agreeing on a Full Billet 245 MM 9 ½ Inch Converter. Full Billet means that the damper is one piece cnc construction specifically designed without damper springs, a larger spline surface area and enlarged clutch surface area for dependability and longer performance. In the kit I use the clutch measure 1 ½ inched wide which provides the same lock up surface ratio as a five disc clutch and more than a triple clutch with less moving pieces. Using this clutch system is what allows builders (if they are good) too raise the efficiency percentage to that of most manufactures 96 percent on the non lock up units.
Remember Tim, you’re the consumer and now that your somewhat educated it is still ultimately your responsibility to explore manufactures‘, their recommendations, and how there converter is built. I’m sure Dusty and the other guys on here can attest to the fact that there are a lot of hacks out there with a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of equipment trying to be performance torque converter builders. Reputation, integrity and quality are everything, not to mention the actual performance which is what we are all after.
As far as rebuilds, it depends on the company. You will find that everyone is pretty close on this with prices ranging from 125-225 for a refresh, plus parts for any extras or alterations (stall changes and efficiency enhancements). Again, don’t let some hack screw up a unit you spend good money for. I’ll charge you double if you send one of my units to someone else and I have to correct it.
First and foremost let me advise that my responses’ are not intended to solicit any business from this forum or to negate any vendor or participants reputation. I have read the Policy Notice on Turbo Buick and must say that you gentleman operate an outstanding information forum for the Buick Turbo Enthusiast.
I am a friend of Rob’s and yes I built his converter and will be better equipped to respond to the majority of the questions fielded. To qualify myself, although I will remain silent as a personality, I am a Torque Converter Builder that is the sole owner of a shop that has been in business since 1971. My resume would include working for three of the top race converter builders and then coming up in the ranks of the remanufacturing business. I helped clients set up converter shops on four occasions and managed a high volume re manufacturing shop that supplies the transmission industry in a three state area with a comeback ratio of less than 2%. Currently, my own shop runs at a ½ percent return ratio. There are very few of us left that are hands on from A to Z. Additionally, I consult for auto manufactures and part suppliers on an as needed contract basis.
That said, let’s move on to the first question that seemed to cause a variety of input and opinion that never seemed to help the member with his question. Members, please take note that the more information that you provide with your question the easier it is for others advise, enthusiasts like Rob and Professionals like Dusty to respond with intelligent concrete advice, hopefully with the driving motivation to be of some help.
1. If I change to a non-lock converter, how is the driveability compared to a lock up? I'm guessing it will not be as drastic of a change compared to 200r4 to th350 trans swap. Is it true going to a non-lock is more reliable and lowers the chances of having problems? For example, list rpm (cruising) at 75 mph with non-lock vs. same speed with lock up converter. What about rebuild prices? Is one cheaper to rebuild than the other? Thanks, Tim
Well Tim, Rob was correct in stating that it depends on your intended purpose for this car. A converter builder should always inquire as to the intended purpose, (street, street/strip, bracket racing, etc.) and the time spent in each category. Ultimately, we want to proved a piece or product that meets your needs as close as possible. The driveability concern can only be answered by the quality of the product. For instance, you can buy a non lock up converter that uses a lock up eliminator kit and your performance would be drastically lower than that of a quality non lock up converter that runs in a busing and on three bearings. The same factors apply to a lock up converter which I will cover later. For the most part “QUIP 6” was correct with his RPM response of 500 RPM. Take any lock up converter to a cruising speed of 65 MPH (Not that anyone in here would violate the law otherwise) and while maintaining a constant speed step on the brake with your other foot and you will see the rpm drop 300-500 depending on the quality of the converter. This takes the converter out of the intended 1:1 ratio with the motor and allows the converters original efficiency rating to prevail.
A. If you are primarily on the street such as a daily driver and fuel mileage comes to play then a good performance lock up unit such as a street/strip kit would be the best choice. These units can be a lot of fun for the consumer, allow the converter builder to get more aggressive with the build, and still provide the dependability of lock up for a long trip by taking the converter out of play.
B. If your street/strip it would depend upon how much time at the strip and whether you are utilizing a trans brake. I build a lot of the fore mentioned kits for street/strip guys on a budget which is another factor to be considered. If every weekend is spent at the strip for points and the car is driven daily otherwise I would recommend a quality non lock up unit (no clutch eliminator kits) due to the fact that the vehicle will experience more launches. However, that is not to say that a Full Billet Lock Up Converter will not run just as well and still provide dependability, generate lower heat, and provide higher gas mileage when needed. To date, the all bearing non lock up converter will always slightly outperform the lock-up with e.t and mph. I speaking of the same two converters here (same core and stall). The reason is that a non lock up can achieve efficiency ratings of 98 percent if properly built. A good Full Billet Converter will run two percent off that pace. However, at 75 mph and a 2 percent slip ratio you will still be generating some form of heat compared to a lock up converter.
C. Strip Only would benefit from the non lock up units that are built with three bearings running in a bushing. Especially, those cars using a transbrake. Speaking to that issue, a good sprag-less converter is the way to go. Remember Billet Covers are a better choice if your budget allows it. The billet cover will be a one piece cnc unit perfectly balance and stronger that any factory housing with an anti balloon plate. If you can not go this route then look for a piece that distribute torque evenly such as the balloon plate with built in bolt pattern or the cnc ring converter with the pilot properly set to serve as a anti balloon stop. Both pieces work well, however my preference is the latter due to weight concerns.
However, when someone develops the Billet Lock Up Converter that rides on three bearings and the transmission builders revisit lock up under peak spool like the Dodge Diesel Boys are doing then we are talking a whole different game.
Hope this helps Tim, now it is time to explore which core is best suited to serve your needs. Then again, many factors come into play. It really gets tricky at this point. Now we have to look at tire size, weight of vehicle, gear ratio, torque production and your turbo set up. Additionally, the same factors for driving habits and intended used come to play.
Rob and I explored every option before agreeing on a Full Billet 245 MM 9 ½ Inch Converter. Full Billet means that the damper is one piece cnc construction specifically designed without damper springs, a larger spline surface area and enlarged clutch surface area for dependability and longer performance. In the kit I use the clutch measure 1 ½ inched wide which provides the same lock up surface ratio as a five disc clutch and more than a triple clutch with less moving pieces. Using this clutch system is what allows builders (if they are good) too raise the efficiency percentage to that of most manufactures 96 percent on the non lock up units.
Remember Tim, you’re the consumer and now that your somewhat educated it is still ultimately your responsibility to explore manufactures‘, their recommendations, and how there converter is built. I’m sure Dusty and the other guys on here can attest to the fact that there are a lot of hacks out there with a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of equipment trying to be performance torque converter builders. Reputation, integrity and quality are everything, not to mention the actual performance which is what we are all after.
As far as rebuilds, it depends on the company. You will find that everyone is pretty close on this with prices ranging from 125-225 for a refresh, plus parts for any extras or alterations (stall changes and efficiency enhancements). Again, don’t let some hack screw up a unit you spend good money for. I’ll charge you double if you send one of my units to someone else and I have to correct it.
