Newly built motor running great at 14* WOT timing?

[forcefed86]

motor break down... is in my sig.

Dropped this “fresh” the engine in the car and after a lengthy break in, immediately blew both head gaskets at 18* timing and 15psi. Not sure what happened here. I was running 11.8-12.0 AFR's. No knock, no detonation on plugs. I'm told with alcohol fuel (I run e85) you skip the detonation and go straight to pre-ignition. This may have been the case. I've since replaced the OEM HG's with SS shims and studs.

In a mad dash I made it out to the last few hours of the local test'n'tune this weekend. With a overly conservative tune and surprised myself.

I mixed my own e85 this time around to assure I had a decent blend. Also since the last incident I use a fuel/ethanol percentage tester to verify 85% ethanol mixtures. At 14* WOT timing, 10.0-10.2 AFR's and 19psi I went 10.79 @ 128. That was with a weak foot brake launch of 1.67. Later I played with the t-brake a bit and managed a new personal best 60' of 1.51 on a 9-10 lb brake launch. This was with 19psi in a 9" x 26" slick. Lots more left there. Unfortunately I had issues blowing the charge piping off at anything over 19psi. So I didn't get to turn up the boost.

At this point I'm thinking the timing on the car is off somehow. I do have a MAF translator II installed. Timing settings are straight up. Using turbo tweak chip to control timing only (set at 103). Grounded the aldl pins and I'm seeing 13* or so at the crank. I'm stumped, yet happy.

(Signature doesn't seem to be updateing?)
86 Rx-7 GXL Hybrid 86 Grand National motor. (2820lbs race weight) (9:1) TRW pistons, Webber ported IRONS, Turbo Tweak E85chip,Translator plus,PT68 turbo,CPT 9" Competition converter, Powerglide, 83lb inj's, Magna Flow 650HP fuel pump, 218/218 flat tapp. cam, 10mm Race Wires, Adj. FP Regulator,RJC PP ,FMIC 18x32 spearco bar&plate, Custom 3 inch mandrel DP, postons X-over pipe. deltagate WG, 3.27 gears, WB 02, 26"x9 slicks,

 

[TurboDave]

Something definately strange going on in there somewhere!!! You should never have blown the head gaskets at such low timing and low boost levels!!!!

And on top of that you're running huge numbers at a rediculously low timing setting????

You've got some serious timing issues somewhere in there.
Do you have a powerlogger?? If so, what does your Advance read on the data screen at WOT.

Here's why I think so..... Why can't you run the same timing and boost that I do????
My bone stock block runs 21# of boost with timing in 1st and 2nd at 21 deg., and 18 deg in 3rd. This while at 11.5:1 AFR.

I only run straight 93 octane gas. You're octane should be way higher than mine with your e85!!


Things to ponder.

 

[forcefed86]

Something definately strange going on in there somewhere!!! You should never have blown the head gaskets at such low timing and low boost levels!!!!

And on top of that you're running huge numbers at a rediculously low timing setting????

You've got some serious timing issues somewhere in there.
Do you have a powerlogger?? If so, what does your Advance read on the data screen at WOT.

Here's why I think so..... Why can't you run the same timing and boost that I do????
My bone stock block runs 21# of boost with timing in 1st and 2nd at 21 deg., and 18 deg in 3rd. This while at 11.5:1 AFR.

I only run straight 93 octane gas. You're octane should be way higher than mine with your e85!!


Things to ponder.

Im lost as well... If I can get out to the track again (track officials woke up a little when I started running 10’s, need some safety equipment items) I can try bumping timing up and down a degree an watching MPH. Without the car being on a dyno I don't know how to check my true timing at wot. Should also mention I'm running a 10 heat range NGK plug and my strap is showing the timing/heat line 3/4 of the way to the base of the plug. (about perfect when tuning with methanol I’m told) Plugs also reflect it is very FAT on the fuel side.

I had to run 28-30psi on my old engine to trap 128. The only changes to the setup are factory 41cc heads(had to shave them to get rid of oring grooves) Small SS HG .033 compressed. Was running the edelbrock 204/214 cam. (now 218/218 comp cams) E-85, chip, fuel lines and 83# injectors. Also changed 2004r and vig 3400 stall to a powerglide and CPT billit 9” converter 3400 stall. Unless the 2004r was eating a ton of power something doesn't make sense.

 

[turbo6man]

Hi, On gas I would be ok with the 11.8 AFR. But since I have switched to E85 I tune wide open throttle to 10.8 AFR on the wideband.(maybe some othe E85 uses will chime in here) I know some guys run it even richer than that. With E85 I would be shi*#ing and getting off the throttle if it was at 12.0AFR. I have ran a 10.4 @127 with AFR at 10.2 and the most timing I have ever run on e85 is 22.5.

I run AC delco plugs p# CR42ts gapped @ .030 have been to 28PSI boost

 

[bison]

Hi, On gas I would be ok with the 11.8 AFR. But since I have switched to E85 I tune wide open throttle to 10.8 AFR on the wideband.(maybe some othe E85 uses will chime in here) I know some guys run it even richer than that. With E85 I would be shi*#ing and getting off the throttle if it was at 12.0AFR. I have ran a 10.4 @127 with AFR at 10.2 and the most timing I have ever run on e85 is 22.5.

I run AC delco plugs p# CR42ts gapped @ .030 have been to 28PSI boost

Id keep adding fuel till you start to lose mph. If your at 10.2:1 and only losing 5hp vs 10.8:1 ill take the 5hp loss. Lots of room for more power there. Id just leave the timing around 22 and continue adding boost.

 

[bison]

motor break down... is in my sig.

Dropped this “fresh” the engine in the car and after a lengthy break in, immediately blew both head gaskets at 18* timing and 15psi. Not sure what happened here. I was running 11.8-12.0 AFR's. No knock, no detonation on plugs. I'm told with alcohol fuel (I run e85) you skip the detonation and go straight to pre-ignition. This may have been the case. I've since replaced the OEM HG's with SS shims and studs.

In a mad dash I made it out to the last few hours of the local test'n'tune this weekend. With a overly conservative tune and surprised myself.

I mixed my own e85 this time around to assure I had a decent blend. Also since the last incident I use a fuel/ethanol percentage tester to verify 85% ethanol mixtures. At 14* WOT timing, 10.0-10.2 AFR's and 19psi I went 10.79 @ 128. That was with a weak foot brake launch of 1.67. Later I played with the t-brake a bit and managed a new personal best 60' of 1.51 on a 9-10 lb brake launch. This was with 19psi in a 9" x 26" slick. Lots more left there. Unfortunately I had issues blowing the charge piping off at anything over 19psi. So I didn't get to turn up the boost.

At this point I'm thinking the timing on the car is off somehow. I do have a MAF translator II installed. Timing settings are straight up. Using turbo tweak chip to control timing only (set at 103). Grounded the aldl pins and I'm seeing 13* or so at the crank. I'm stumped, yet happy.

(Signature doesn't seem to be updateing?)
86 Rx-7 GXL Hybrid 86 Grand National motor. (2820lbs race weight) (9:1) TRW pistons, Webber ported IRONS, Turbo Tweak E85chip,Translator plus,PT68 turbo,CPT 9" Competition converter, Powerglide, 83lb inj's, Magna Flow 650HP fuel pump, 218/218 flat tapp. cam, 10mm Race Wires, Adj. FP Regulator,RJC PP ,FMIC 18x32 spearco bar&plate, Custom 3 inch mandrel DP, postons X-over pipe. deltagate WG, 3.27 gears, WB 02, 26"x9 slicks,

Ask Eric what his base timing is. If its 15* your actually retarded 2* more than you think and if its 10* your advanced 3*. Once you figure out what the baseline is via phone call or email you can have him burn you a chip to correct any error in your base timing.

 

[bison]

Im lost as well... If I can get out to the track again (track officials woke up a little when I started running 10’s, need some safety equipment items) I can try bumping timing up and down a degree an watching MPH. Without the car being on a dyno I don't know how to check my true timing at wot. Should also mention I'm running a 10 heat range NGK plug and my strap is showing the timing/heat line 3/4 of the way to the base of the plug. (about perfect when tuning with methanol I’m told) Plugs also reflect it is very FAT on the fuel side.

I had to run 28-30psi on my old engine to trap 128. The only changes to the setup are factory 41cc heads(had to shave them to get rid of oring grooves) Small SS HG .033 compressed. Was running the edelbrock 204/214 cam. (now 218/218 comp cams) E-85, chip, fuel lines and 83# injectors. Also changed 2004r and vig 3400 stall to a powerglide and CPT billit 9” converter 3400 stall. Unless the 2004r was eating a ton of power something doesn't make sense.

What cc dish on the piston and what depth in the hole are they. Looks like you have over 9:1 there. Probably 9.5:1 or more. That will add a lot of power itself until it gets hurt

 

[Otto J]

12.0 to 1 is way to lean on E85 if its reading correctly

 

[forcefed86]

Using gas scale WB02. 12.5 is peak lean power on a gas scale for e85. Sorry should have clarified that. I ran 11.5:1 on 91 pump gas and meth injection for years on a te45A at 25-28psi on 25* timing. Worked like a champ. Also run e85 on my daily driver tuned to 12.0 WOT AFR. (gas scale) running over 30psi. I think I can get by with more timing and boost than most TB owners because I weigh alot less.


As far as compression goes I'm getting right at 9.06. I'm 41.5cc on the heads(i used 41 in my calc). About the same as TA heads. Factory bore and deck height. (.035 in the hole I believe?) 24.48cc dish fed mogul pistons. .033 HG.

Odd part is I'm only pushing 155 cranking compression on all cylinders. I didn't think a 218/218 would bleed that much compression? Motor has around 500 break in miles on it. Rings should be seated. Have split the oil filter several times no metal.

Timing on erics chip is 22* His base is 15*.

 

[bison]

His base is 15*.

How did you verify you have 15*?

 

[forcefed86]

grounded the two terminals on the aldl and used an adjustable timing light. So I dropped my oil pump cover searching for some alum material I found in the oil filter. I believe the gasket I used was not the proper spec thickness. It was .0025? Maybe .003 uncompressed? It came with the pump. The felpro replacement I got is .007. So after I fixed the pump I popped out the cam sensor drive to prim. After this was done I verified the timing process all over again. It's installed correctly.(pretty easy with a casper LED cap) I also installed the pigtail loop in the MAF translator to eliminate that possibility. My aft plugs look about spot on and my center and FWD plugs look pug rich... Seems odd. I am running the RJC plate. May have some oiling issues on that center plug as well.

Here are the plugs.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

So after the reinstalled Cam Sensor it's still off?

Considering you upped your static compression a whole point, don't get caught in 8:1 land of cylinder pressure and what you used to be able to run on whatever psi and timing. That's what crossed my mind when I read your headgasket issue, though that still shouldn't have happened.

The Import World insists on running E85 at 12.5:1 AF/R. If you go back to the dyno, do a run at that ratio, one at 11.5 and then high 10's and the TQ should keep going up. If you ever try this post back.

 

[TurboDave]

Timing on erics chip is 22* His base is 15*.

You lost me here. His chip is 22*, yet you say you're running 14*. What are you seeing that timing on??

 

[RmvBfrFlght]

Don't take this as gospel...: your sig has "Webber ported IRONS" and the plugs are a long reach. Which to me means that they are not the correct spark plug for the heads.

The plugs also show about a 1/4" of carbon on the threads, which would occur with stock(ish) Buick heads and long reach plugs.

RemoveBeforeFlight

 

[forcefed86]

So after the reinstalled Cam Sensor it's still off?

Considering you upped your static compression a whole point, don't get caught in 8:1 land of cylinder pressure and what you used to be able to run on whatever psi and timing. That's what crossed my mind when I read your headgasket issue, though that still shouldn't have happened.

The Import World insists on running E85 at 12.5:1 AF/R. If you go back to the dyno, do a run at that ratio, one at 11.5 and then high 10's and the TQ should keep going up. If you ever try this post back.

I set up #1 TDC and marked my cam sensor before removing. Then verified it was set correctly with the caspers cam sensor/tool. I have not however re-checked my base timing. I will do this, but since the cam sensor position did not change, I doubt my timing will have changed. As usual I made a lot of changes at once so tuning process needs to be completely redone. The OEM gasket is .060. So when I blew that gasket I was not at 9:1. 18* IMO should not have pushed that gasket. I’m suspecting some sort of clamping issue, as there was no indication of trouble, not even on the plug. Maybe hung up on an alignment pin? Who knows??

Speaking of the import world… My 4g63 motor is 9:1 CR and I spike well past 35psi. I saw zero MPH change from 11.5 to 12.5 AFRs. Below 11.5 my MPH started dropping slightly. This motor also has large aftermarket cams and performs very well at these AFR’s. Given the buick eng is old technology and does not seem to perform well at these same settings. Also witnessed an e85 eclipse gain 5whp going from 11.5-12.5 afr’s. I have yet to see a TQ or HP gains at our dyno local shop below 12.5 AFR. This is the common target for e85 in these parts. (not saying that’s correct, as I believe every engine will be different)

You lost me here. His chip is 22*, yet you say you're running 14*. What are you seeing that timing on??

So erics chips have adjustable parameters for wot timing and fuel. These are adjusted per pedal inputs using a scanmaster II. The chips initial WOT timing is set at 22* It is then adjustable 9* up or down. Eric feels 22* is conservative for e85, even with 9:1 C/R. I set mine 8* retarded from the initial 22* setting. As far as monitoring the actual reading at WOT I have no way of doing this unless I was on a dyno. I may end up going that route as I feel something is incorrect.

 

[forcefed86]

Don't take this as gospel...: your sig has "Webber ported IRONS" and the plugs are a long reach. Which to me means that they are not the correct spark plug for the heads.

The plugs also show about a 1/4" of carbon on the threads, which would occur with stock(ish) Buick heads and long reach plugs.

RemoveBeforeFlight

sorry I will change my sig. The heads are OEM 8445 casting heads, ported by webber, with oversized SS valves and 100# springs.

 

[TurboBuRick]

I wonder if your getting a false reading. The timing ring and/or the crank key can be clocked wrong.

Try to verify tdc by using something to feel #1 piston through the spark plug hole. Rotate the motor via the crank bolt. When #1 comes up, mark the balancer at 0*. Continue to rotate till the piston starts to move down. Mark the balancer again at 0*. The center point between both marks should be pretty close to tdc.

I need to do this myself. I also have doubts my timing is right.

 

[bison]

sorry I will change my sig. The heads are OEM 8445 casting heads, ported by webber, with oversized SS valves and 100# springs.

Just an FYI t anyone reading this the cam sensor has zero effect on ignition timing once it's initially timed and the engine is running. You can advance or retard it several degrees and it won't matter. It will matter if it gets changed drastically after it's running though. The interrupter rings position relative to crank position is what physically matters.

 

[jdpolzin]

Are you running a stock balancer or an external balancer? My BHJ was off by 8* and i had to make up for it in the FAST program. ------Jeremy

 

[RmvBfrFlght]

sorry I will change my sig. The heads are OEM 8445 casting heads, ported by webber, with oversized SS valves and 100# springs.

Need to use different spark plugs. They are supposed to be a taper seat with a .460" reach and 5/8" hex. The Autolite # 23 is an example of the proper spark plug.

With the plugs currently being used the tip will be extended well into the chamber. This causes two issues, the first is that it is the same as advancing the spark timing some. The second and more important issue is that the threads that are protruding into the chamber can glow red.

This will cause pre-ignition. Which may be what happened.

RemoveBeforeFlight