Maximum Stage II Horsepower

[Big Stu]

A rule of thumb for estimating is 18% drive train loss with an auto.
Kenny had a Liberty 5 Speed with Clutch that I am sure there is much less maybe less than half. I would say that when Kenny was going 6.8s at around 2300lbs he was making a little more than 1400 to the wheels!

When kenny was campaining the red car he used an air shifted owens transmission. The race boost setting was 30# and he made 1100 rwhp with this setup. I am absolutely positive he knew exactly which gears and transmission ratios to use to get that number. Rear gear was 500. A lot of guys ask duttweiler which rear gear/tire size/ and trans ratio because he has this info down to a science. I was told 4.57 based on a 34" tall tire and some trans specs I was throwing around at the time. i have no doubt it'll work like kenny says it will.

 

[John Wilde]

When kenny was campaining the red car he used an air shifted owens transmission. The race boost setting was 30# and he made 1100 rwhp with this setup. I am absolutely positive he knew exactly which gears and transmission ratios to use to get that number. Rear gear was 500. A lot of guys ask duttweiler which rear gear/tire size/ and trans ratio because he has this info down to a science. I was told 4.57 based on a 34" tall tire and some trans specs I was throwing around at the time. i have no doubt it'll work like kenny says it will.

I will never argue with Big Stu because he is of course "Big Stu".
Kenny started off with the Owens tranny and went to a Liberty.
I am not sure when this happend chronologically.

 

[EightSecV6]

I will never argue with Big Stu because he is of course "Big Stu".
Kenny started off with the Owens tranny and went to a Liberty.
I am not sure when this happend chronologically.

He had 2 transmissions in Bristol, one was a Liberty, I thought the other was a G-Force.

 

[Big Stu]

I will never argue with Big Stu because he is of course "Big Stu".
Kenny started off with the Owens tranny and went to a Liberty.
I am not sure when this happend chronologically.

John, you are always correct. The owens was first, then the liberty, and as bill stated, he used the g-force also. I remember duttweiler would switch from a four speed to a five speed depending on what track conditions dictated. Wish I had spare stuff to test like that.

 

[Big Stu]

I will never argue with Big Stu because he is of course "Big Stu".
Kenny started off with the Owens tranny and went to a Liberty.
I am not sure when this happend chronologically.

I wouldn't argue with a good friend, especially one who knows a lot more than I do about this stuff. 6'5" 250lbs. isn't that big right?

 

[Alky V6]

Bill and Stu,

I would have to think that 2100 to 2200HP would be easy to achieve.
Someone should test the durability of the TA Block with extreme alcky set up.
I would imagine a super set of rods would need to be built for the application.
I don't know if the off the self olivers would be up to it. With the a high compression alcky motor you could also spool some big turbos with an auto.

The main thing that will keep someone from successfully running nitro, at high percentages anyway, will be the rods. Because of the low cam location, a beefy enough aluminum rod is out of the question. And since aluminum rods is the preferred material because of their ability to absorb or cushion the battering that the lower end takes with nitro, I don't think any other material would stand up too long. I was considering running a little nitro with my next engine, but after failing to find someone that felt comfortable making a set of aluminum rods for the Buick V6, at least at the HP level I was needing, the idea has been put on the shelf. I am lowering the static compression of the next engine, so maybe I'll still try a low percentage. 10 percent to start. There's an old nitro tuner at the track I go to that is drooling to see me try some nitro in my car.

 

[Big Stu]

The main thing that will keep someone from successfully running nitro, at high percentages anyway, will be the rods. Because of the low cam location, a beefy enough aluminum rod is out of the question. And since aluminum rods is the preferred material because of their ability to absorb or cushion the battering that the lower end takes with nitro, I don't think any other material would stand up too long. I was considering running a little nitro with my next engine, but after failing to find someone that felt comfortable making a set of aluminum rods for the Buick V6, at least at the HP level I was needing, the idea has been put on the shelf. I am lowering the static compression of the next engine, so maybe I'll still try a low percentage. 10 percent to start. There's an old nitro tuner at the track I go to that is drooling to see me try some nitro in my car.

I agree about the rods, maybe just running a little nitro would do the trick.

 

[Alky V6]

I agree about the rods, maybe just running a little nitro would do the trick.

A little?

Big Stu, I think I met you at the Nationals. Your parts descriptions in your signature sounds familiar. Have you started assembly or are you still putting together parts? I've been working on a max stage II configuration (on alcohol, of course) and would like to compare notes with you sometime. I may never build it, because it would mean changing my whole engine setup as it is now (very expensive), but would like to get some feed back on what I've put together.

 

[Big Stu]

A little?

Big Stu, I think I met you at the Nationals. Your parts descriptions in your signature sounds familiar. Have you started assembly or are you still putting together parts? I've been working on a max stage II configuration (on alcohol, of course) and would like to compare notes with you sometime. I may never build it, because it would mean changing my whole engine setup as it is now (very expensive), but would like to get some feed back on what I've put together.

I am pretty close to assembly don, just a few more things and an intercooler and I am ready to make the trip to duttweiler. The injected nitro was something a friend and I were throwing around. Truthfully, I don't think I have parts to take a big dose of it though. My friend used to drive front engine dragsters on 100% nitro, then bonneville and el mirage using straight 6 chevy's injected on nitro. He still has Mike Cooks old pantera that set a ton of records there, so he is where I get all my info from. I had asked him if it was possible to make 1800+ and he agreed it could be done but the best of the best parts would be needed. Like was mentioned in this thread, the rods would be the big hangup for that kind of a hit. Spark required to light nitromethane was discussed too because I guess you need a LOT. Just from what I've been told. I trust my buddys judgement with 40 years of racing experience, and his developmental dealings with Nick Arias on their Chevy/ hemi heads which should be out soon, reportably making over 670cfm intake with almost an inch of lift. I think I have a cd somewhere with all the blueprints of it, suppose that's worth anything? Yes, it was a pleasure to meet you in vegas, I've never heard a gn sound like an indy car while making a pass. Pretty cool.....

 

[turbodragster]

im not sure the limmits but i can tell you im going to find out we were running twin 70mm p-trim turbos but now we are stepping up to a gts wheel from there maybe change to 74mms the import toyotas make 1600 with 183ci so with a stage II motor i feel to exceed that is not that unforseen if this little thing will stand 1800 or 1900 we are going to find out its not going to happen overnight but we are working towards that. and try to stay on gasoline but i will have to see. maybe switch over to alky but i want to start to try to tickle the 5 sec zone but we will have to see its all a matter of time and money been 6.51 at 207 so i think we got a shot

 

[John Wilde]

im not sure the limmits but i can tell you im going to find out we were running twin 70mm p-trim turbos but now we are stepping up to a gts wheel from there maybe change to 74mms the import toyotas make 1600 with 183ci so with a stage II motor i feel to exceed that is not that unforseen if this little thing will stand 1800 or 1900 we are going to find out its not going to happen overnight but we are working towards that. and try to stay on gasoline but i will have to see. maybe switch over to alky but i want to start to try to tickle the 5 sec zone but we will have to see its all a matter of time and money been 6.51 at 207 so i think we got a shot

My friend, this is the kind of stuff I like to hear.
It sounds like you are considering the GT-42 with the 74MM Wheels.
These are really nice and we have made 1860HP with these using a low timing and boost tune up. I am considering twin GT-42 with the 70MM wheel or a custom GT-40 with a 70 MM Compressor for my car.

 

[turbodragster]

well that is what i would like to make if it made 1800 we would go into the 5's for sure but im sure its not going to be easy

 

[John Wilde]

well that is what i would like to make if it made 1800 we would go into the 5's for sure but im sure its not going to be easy

Duttweiler made 1830HP with his 280CI SBC and twin GT42 70MM.
It would have made more power but it ran out of turbo.

Good luck I will be watching!!!

PS pir GT42 are good for about 2000HP.

 

[turbodragster]

well i got the car to handle that kind of power but we will see if me and my people can make it happen 1800 2000 hp i think is pushing the limits of this little motor

 

[Alky V6]

Turbo size is not the only thing needed. Would steel rods hold up under that much cylinder pressure to get those HP numbers from a V6? Will even Stage II heads flow that much?

 

[turbodragster]

well we are going to try and find out i will let everyone know

 

[John Wilde]

Has anyone tried or succeeded in outflowing a set of 350CFM Stage 2 Heads???

 

[Alky V6]

Has anyone tried or succeeded in outflowing a set of 350CFM Stage 2 Heads???

What are the best flow numbers for intake and exhaust that anyones heard of?
At 25 or 28 ins.-h2o, at what lift?

 

[John Wilde]

Here are the Chapman Heads that I had, these are the same units Kenny went 6.8s with!
Please keep in mind I was going to use a cam bigger than .700 inch!!!

Intake Port Volume: 247cc
Exaust Port Volume
Chamber Volume 40.5cc
Valve sizes and Lengths
Intake Valve 2.100 x 5.540
Exhaust Valve 1.625 x 5.560
Flow Figures @28"
Intake Exhaust
.100 68 53
.200 145 113
.300 221 174
.400 281 213
.500 321 229
.600 336 241
.700 341 247
Extra Info NOTE: This program will only work on select castings. Please call for more information.

 

[Alky V6]

Good info. I'm going to do some calcs with this. What is the highest octane gasoline out there? I hear the import guys are using some super duper stuff.