Where you have it all wrong is assuming that because it is illegal makes it immoral or even in the best interests of anyone. I personally make no challenge to the legality or illegality of products like this. I challenge the very law and its motivations.
Fact is that we have the cleanest air since the EPA has been keeping records. L.A. has cleaner air today than it did in the 1950s, and now there are millions more cars on the road.
Fact is that you can take any smog ILLEGAL manifold (and a number of other parts)from say holley, edelbrock, etc and install it on a car that requires for example EGR. No different than installing an o2 sim meant for off road vehicles knowing some will me installed on vehicles on the road. Everyone into cars knows someone with a holley or edelbrock NON carb legal part on a car that falls under CARB jurisdiction. My old 1989 Firebird was an edelbrock catalog for non smog legal parts. They went after caspers because caspers was an easy target for some tree hugging Marxist to feel good about themselves.
Fact is that there is a huge Eco industrial complex that has its best interest in promoting that there is a problem with the environment. Lets not forget the Socialist motivations behind trying to stifle private business and human production in general.
Fact is that every day the arguments for the Make-Believe that is man made global warming grow weaker and weaker but the claims made by the man made global warming believers become more desperate and apocalyptic, if its hot its global warming, if its cold its global warming, if it rains its global warming, if its dry its global warming. Mainstream belief of global warming is like seeing the Emperors New Clothes.
Using the logic that an o2 sim is going to be used for an "illegal" purpose and thus wrong one could also use the logic that any horsepower beyond that which to accelerate safely to the speed limit is only going to be an accessory to break laws. You don't need 500 hp in a street car if you plan on obeying traffic laws but the new corvette Z06 meant for street use comes with it from the factory. GM and the general public have no notion that the several thousand corvettes produced each year are only going to be used on a race track. They are knowingly being an accessory to law breakers
This is why no nation can tolerate absolute enforcement of all of its laws. Some have tried and they usually end up having to kill a few million people to conform (see the former USSR, Cambodia, etc) It's the reason why we are supposed to be enforcing the spirit and not the letter of the law. If you want to enforce the letter of every law your very existence is criminal from the minute you wake up in the morning with the staggering number of laws on the books.
Reading things like the above remind me why the USA is toast and the constitution is dead. People have been taught to value the common good more than individual freedoms and have forgotten that the government is a slave to our wishes and not the other way around.
So you think the rest of the Aftermarket community has convinced the EPA their parts are actually being used for off road?? Now how old are you again? Anyhow, you no longer have the term "Off Road" unless there is something to the exemtion Broke1 mentioned.
WTF? You need to re-read what I put before you comment. And Im old enough to do 2 combat tours and work at a Dealership fixing cars fo a living, But thanks for asking.
Yes sir you're right. It was you that started talking about companies paying for research of parts which the DOT requires and while the EPA does not.
Like I said re-read everything before you post. I never mentioned anything as far as companies paying for research to the DOT for smog legal stuff.
The only reason that you could get your car to "pass" emissions or run cleaner with "illegal" parts than it came with from the factory is cause the company who you bought the parts from DID NOT spend the extra money to get his stuff tested by EPA
WTF? You need to re-read what I put before you comment. And Im old enough to do 2 combat tours and work at a Dealership fixing cars fo a living, But thanks for asking.
I've talked to SEMA at length, and their thing is to support the automakers any way the see fit. The "big three" or however many there are, are the entities that pave the way for their interests. The aftermarket is sort of in the middle. And, the O2 SIM rested in the gray area, so SEMA couldn't offer any support as the EPA makes (and modifies) the rules.
This is the tip of the iceberg. I fear of what is to be in the automotive aftermarket. I was even told that replacing fuel injectors is considered an EPA offense and they intend to go after any company who sells injectors! What next? And will SEMA back up the aftermarket? I have my doubts...
And will SEMA back up the aftermarket? I have my doubts...
IMO there was no way this case would have been won no matter who got involved. Regardless of what the intent of the product was, the inescapable fact is that it allowed an intergal part of the emissions system to be removed from the car. Unplug the O2 sensor, car runs bad with check engine light, install sim (short for SIMULATOR) light goes out, car runs good, but with NO monitor system in place. If something did go wrong you would never know since the sim kept putting out a happy signal. This completly defeats the pourpose of it being there. It is sad and in my view wrong since in the real world, with proper use it was a good product, but these are the facts.
Mike
IMO there was no way this case would have been won no matter who got involved. Regardless of what the intent of the product was, the inescapable fact is that it allowed an intergal part of the emissions system to be removed from the car. Unplug the O2 sensor, car runs bad with check engine light, install sim (short for SIMULATOR) light goes out, car runs good, but with NO monitor system in place. If something did go wrong you would never know since the sim kept putting out a happy signal. This completly defeats the pourpose of it being there. It is sad and in my view wrong since in the real world, with proper use it was a good product, but these are the facts.
Mike
I'm of a different opinion Mike. The EPA held John personaly responcible for other people's actions. We've seen cases like this envolving the Tobacco and Gun industry for years. So when does it become the responcibillity of the person buying the cigs or the guy killing people? This gets me back to the subject of Edelbrock. The EPA went after someone small to help shield the issues from the Media. I think an attack on someone like Edelbrock would have made a few headlines.
When has Edelbrock marketed a product with the sole purpose of tricking an OBDII computer controlled car & removing emissions equipment to function? They spend a ton of money to research & develop products that are PROVEN to increase HP & remain emission legal. Believe it or not it is possible to make big HP without tampering with emissions controls.
What about all the emission legal parts Edelbrock develops that retain the egr valve & all emission controls with certification? It looks like you failed to see those?? Pick the correct manifold & parts for the correct year vehicle & enjoy emission legal performance.
So what about all those manifolds that retain the EGR? You act like the EPA should give them a Good Guy burger for making legal manifolds along with their illegal manifolds. The fact of the matter is they're breaking the law by producing illegal manifolds period! Sure they build legal manifolds. I failed to report this simply because you did not ask how they was obeying the law. This is common sence knowledge. Instead you questioned my opinion about how Edelbrock was breaking the law. Sorry I miss understood you.
How are they building illegal manifolds???? You put the correct manifold on the correct model year vehicle. Not too hard to do!! They sell intakes that fit 1955 sbc's - 1995+ sbc's, should they all be the same?? You must have tried to put a 4v intake on your GN if you don't see the differance. These kinds of lessons are usually learned in pre school. Just because the round peg fit's in the square hole doesn't mean it's correct. :biggrin: