UNDER-PRESSURE
..... Member .....
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2006
Well said!!
Hard luck for Caspers electronics....
- Thread starter turbosam6
- Start date
Thank you. And I would like to say again, Im not a tree hugger or "hippie" I love when companies make aftermarket parts and I love how Casper's makes a huge amount of wiring upgrades and accesories for our vehicles and many other. I believe them making this product and selling it was just a bad decision which unfortunatly they will have to pay the price for. I wish them the best and hopefully with our support they will previal. Sorry for the spelling.'
And for those that want a "legal" way to defeat the system, its easy. Keep your "test pipe" and save all your pre-cat o2 sensors. Once they get old and lazy remove them and put them in after the cat where the o2 sim normaly would go if you have it.
All the OBDII system looks for is if the pre-cat o2 sensor and the post-cat o2 sensor are sending the same signal/cross counts. If they are, then the cat is bad or missing because the exhuast before the cat is the same as after the cat. BUT if you put a lazy/worn/old o2 sensor after the cat, then the computer sees a signal that is not the same and sees the cat as doing its job, event though its missing.
And for all you "mechanically" inclined, enjoy!
OQCGP :: Ontario Quebec Club Grand Prix
Nasty Wendy
Perverted Lurker
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
You got it wrong my friend. I'm not going to cut you down or slam you for it though. I'll try to clear up a few things that may give you a clearer picture of what happened here. Many aftermarket exhaust products keep emissions within spec and some even improve them. Yes some high-performance exhaust systems out perform some stock systems emisision-wise as well as performance-wise. When these or any other system are installed on an OBDII vehicle the SES light often comes on due to the O2 sensors not reading IN SPEC. SPECs are derived from what the sensors should see with the stock parts. Any change even improvements in emissions will cause a SES light due to sensors reading out of spec. The computer will now tailor the fuel to put the car back IN SPEC, that means it will call for more fuel in most cases which will hurt emissions. Casper's never promoted the removal of catalytic coverters. Thier product was designed with CAT BACK systems in mind. This fine against them is the same as fining straw manufactors because people use them to snort cocaine with. Being a car nut I know the temptation to get all the performance you can get out of any part is hard to resist but if I'm stopped and cited for not having a CAT that should be my problem not Casper's Electonics'. Of course lots of people used them and removed the CAT converters but how can you honestly say that the actions of those people are the responsibility of Casper's? How many of us have received speeding tickets? Was it our fault, after all the makers of the cars designed them to go much faster than the legal speedlimit. Try using that defence in traffic court and see what you are told. The EPA made an EXAMPLE out of him. They didn't care if they were right or wrong. They made it to where he couldn't afford to get the case to court!!!! His argument was undeniable. They strong armed him into the situation he now faces.
UNDER-PRESSURE
..... Member .....
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2006
You got it wrong my friend & i'm not going to cut you down for it. :biggrin: O2 simulators are not needed for cat back exhaust systems & only needed when the converters have been removed. I've installed hundreds of cat back systems on OBII cars & not 1 has ever set off the SES light! Cat back exhaust systems are legal & is not tampering with the computer controlled emission controls. If replacing the exhaust behind the converter with non OEM parts was illegal Midas, Mieneke, Walker, etc.... would be out of buisness. The only laws cat back systems break are for noise & that's another hammer that's about to drop on everyone. Do your homework everyone, learn the laws & fight for your rights!
Well said and thanks for having an intelligent comment. But there is a few things on which we dissagree.
First any exhuast system you buy, usually a cat-back will not affect o2 sensor readings, therefore are not required to be "50 state legal" According to the California Referee I had to see, "Anything that is installed from the air filter (including the housing) to the catalyst is an emission component" So exhuast systems really dont apply.
Second, if you where speaking about aftermarket cats, these have to be "smog legal" in california. Not all cats are created equal and not all cats pass ca. smog emissions, take Random Technoligy's High flow cats for instance. So when you install a cat like this one, yes the ses light will come on due to its ineffiecency.
Third, this product wasnt designed for "cat back systems" as they will not affect readings before and after the cat. This product was designed for people running "high flow" cats that would set the ses light on due to there poor emission performance or for people with out cats at all.
Fourth, yes some exhuast components like headers may cause smoother flow and could cause the ses light to come on, its possible but this is why they should be tested by the company and verify that is is "50 state legal". If they are trying to save a buck and sell it "for off road use only" then thats on them and yes, I know testing is very expensive and thats why you have such a huge difference in price. Smog legal headers usually cost more then those Chinese ebay headers that are smog illegal.
And last, the only reason I could see blaming Casper's is that they designed a product to defeat a OBDII monitor system, plain and simple thats illegal.
This wasnt designed for performance gains or needed to install cat-back system. It was designed to trick an emission component. Making a straw is not illegal, selling it to drug dealers or user's is not illegal, snorting drugs is illegal.
Hopefully this makes sense. For example, in california it is illegal to have a radar jammer and use it on public roads to defeat any type of speeding enforcement. Now lets say radar jammers would be illegal in the entire US, Now you have a company that makes a Radar Jammer that works perfectly well but when they sell it in the US, they stamp "For off road use only" Why would you buy this? When driving off road you dont need a radar jammer do you? So then most likely it would be used to break the law right? I know its hard to change peoples point of view once they decided where they stand but hopefully you could see some kind of reason why the EPA is going after them and that product.
Nasty Wendy
Perverted Lurker
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
If its ok with you I'll agree to respectfully disagree. After all arguing on the internet is like "Racing in the special olympics."
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2005
let me educate you the purpose of o2's (upstream and down stream) on your odbII car,because you dont fully understand the purpose of them.I'm a former gm tech,and mobile electronics tech for twenty years now,so you can trust what i tell you.
the 02's BEFORE the cat(S) are for tuning the fuel/air ratio depending on engine load,temp,etc,etc.
the o2's after the cat(S) only check the air/fuel ratio to make sure cat is working within the "spec" as you like to say. after these o2,s you can do whatever you want ,no change in what the computer "sees".
the real reason for these sims are for real off road race cars that need the cats removed for more power and for the computer not to have a "code".usually if the CEL is on(odbII) some/or most engine parameters are in "safe mode" which kills engine performance.this depends on vehicle/computer/etc.
whats ironic about all this is there is a way to remove the rear cats and "move " the rear o2's without these "sims" that dont cost a thing.:biggrin: Ive done this to one of my vehicles and no codes,(i needed the extra towing power
)Casper's sold these to make a profit (on other cars that has NOTHING to do with our cars by the way) and we are supposed to bail them out? we need them yes,but they made the "mistake" if that is what you want to call it.yes the government is crazy, we all know that,but they have to start somewhere.
i guess the word "off road used only" aren't gonna cover companies butts now?
Nasty Wendy
Perverted Lurker
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
Allow me to clear up one of my statements. When I said CAT back I should have said with the CAT in place. No doubt anything that includes headers isn't a CAT back....my bad. Systems with the CAT in place that exceed emission specs for the better will throw these codes as well especially if they incorporate aftermarket headers. I'm not arguing this. Just wanted to clear up what I said.
My biggest problem about it all is he wasn't able to take his arguement to court.
My biggest problem about it all is he wasn't able to take his arguement to court.
UNDER-PRESSURE
..... Member .....
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2006
I'm sure he could have taken it to court but with the legal fee's & HUGE fine's dangling over head that settlement deal had to look pretty good??
Where you have it all wrong is assuming that because it is illegal makes it immoral or even in the best interests of anyone. I personally make no challenge to the legality or illegality of products like this. I challenge the very law and its motivations.
Fact is that we have the cleanest air since the EPA has been keeping records. L.A. has cleaner air today than it did in the 1950s, and now there are millions more cars on the road.
Fact is that you can take any smog ILLEGAL manifold (and a number of other parts)from say holley, edelbrock, etc and install it on a car that requires for example EGR. No different than installing an o2 sim meant for off road vehicles knowing some will me installed on vehicles on the road. Everyone into cars knows someone with a holley or edelbrock NON carb legal part on a car that falls under CARB jurisdiction. My old 1989 Firebird was an edelbrock catalog for non smog legal parts. They went after caspers because caspers was an easy target for some tree hugging Marxist to feel good about themselves.
Fact is that there is a huge Eco industrial complex that has its best interest in promoting that there is a problem with the environment. Lets not forget the Socialist motivations behind trying to stifle private business and human production in general.
Fact is that every day the arguments for the Make-Believe that is man made global warming grow weaker and weaker but the claims made by the man made global warming believers become more desperate and apocalyptic, if its hot its global warming, if its cold its global warming, if it rains its global warming, if its dry its global warming. Mainstream belief of global warming is like seeing the Emperors New Clothes.
Using the logic that an o2 sim is going to be used for an "illegal" purpose and thus wrong one could also use the logic that any horsepower beyond that which to accelerate safely to the speed limit is only going to be an accessory to break laws. You don't need 500 hp in a street car if you plan on obeying traffic laws but the new corvette Z06 meant for street use comes with it from the factory. GM and the general public have no notion that the several thousand corvettes produced each year are only going to be used on a race track. They are knowingly being an accessory to law breakers
This is why no nation can tolerate absolute enforcement of all of its laws. Some have tried and they usually end up having to kill a few million people to conform (see the former USSR, Cambodia, etc) It's the reason why we are supposed to be enforcing the spirit and not the letter of the law. If you want to enforce the letter of every law your very existence is criminal from the minute you wake up in the morning with the staggering number of laws on the books.
Reading things like the above remind me why the USA is toast and the constitution is dead. People have been taught to value the common good more than individual freedoms and have forgotten that the government is a slave to our wishes and not the other way around.
Fact is that we have the cleanest air since the EPA has been keeping records. L.A. has cleaner air today than it did in the 1950s, and now there are millions more cars on the road.
Fact is that you can take any smog ILLEGAL manifold (and a number of other parts)from say holley, edelbrock, etc and install it on a car that requires for example EGR. No different than installing an o2 sim meant for off road vehicles knowing some will me installed on vehicles on the road. Everyone into cars knows someone with a holley or edelbrock NON carb legal part on a car that falls under CARB jurisdiction. My old 1989 Firebird was an edelbrock catalog for non smog legal parts. They went after caspers because caspers was an easy target for some tree hugging Marxist to feel good about themselves.
Fact is that there is a huge Eco industrial complex that has its best interest in promoting that there is a problem with the environment. Lets not forget the Socialist motivations behind trying to stifle private business and human production in general.
Fact is that every day the arguments for the Make-Believe that is man made global warming grow weaker and weaker but the claims made by the man made global warming believers become more desperate and apocalyptic, if its hot its global warming, if its cold its global warming, if it rains its global warming, if its dry its global warming. Mainstream belief of global warming is like seeing the Emperors New Clothes.
Using the logic that an o2 sim is going to be used for an "illegal" purpose and thus wrong one could also use the logic that any horsepower beyond that which to accelerate safely to the speed limit is only going to be an accessory to break laws. You don't need 500 hp in a street car if you plan on obeying traffic laws but the new corvette Z06 meant for street use comes with it from the factory. GM and the general public have no notion that the several thousand corvettes produced each year are only going to be used on a race track. They are knowingly being an accessory to law breakers
This is why no nation can tolerate absolute enforcement of all of its laws. Some have tried and they usually end up having to kill a few million people to conform (see the former USSR, Cambodia, etc) It's the reason why we are supposed to be enforcing the spirit and not the letter of the law. If you want to enforce the letter of every law your very existence is criminal from the minute you wake up in the morning with the staggering number of laws on the books.
Reading things like the above remind me why the USA is toast and the constitution is dead. People have been taught to value the common good more than individual freedoms and have forgotten that the government is a slave to our wishes and not the other way around.
Turbo6Smackdown
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2005
I agree with posts 44, 48, 49 and 51. But this last post above this, has it down. If you want to push all this little bulls**t, then what about jay walking, making sure you stop a full 2 seconds at every stop sign, and oh yea, what about wives here in my state, that can't cut their hair without their husbands permission. This is just stupid. I don't like how the government can just pick and choose based off of what promotes them at that time. This has gotten too far out of control. Weren't WE the ones that were supposed to tell THEM what to do? Boy did we slip. As legal or illegal as a stupid O2 simulator was, I'm VERY sure there's WAYY more important things to be worrying about, than the 35 silly o2 sims caspers electronics was selling a year....
At any rate, I got worried, and as soon as I read all this malarkey, I called them up to see if they were ok, and they said they would be, if we kept buying stuff from them. (I wanted to know if i should jump on some of their stuff now before they go away or not) So I'm very glad they're confident. Let's just keep buying their stuff, and trying our best to promote them, to keep 'em around. The way I look at it is, that they make some pretty cool, and odd stuff for a rare and dying breed of car. And we canNOT afford to lose them. Not in my opinion anyways.
At any rate, I got worried, and as soon as I read all this malarkey, I called them up to see if they were ok, and they said they would be, if we kept buying stuff from them. (I wanted to know if i should jump on some of their stuff now before they go away or not) So I'm very glad they're confident. Let's just keep buying their stuff, and trying our best to promote them, to keep 'em around. The way I look at it is, that they make some pretty cool, and odd stuff for a rare and dying breed of car. And we canNOT afford to lose them. Not in my opinion anyways.
Nuff said!
It's pointless in my books to argue about anything else.
UNDER-PRESSURE said:
This doesn't mean anything if you get right down to the core of the subject. Sims was used to break the law...how many Holley Carbs or Eldelbrock manifolds are used to do the same thing? Judging by what was done to Casper, the same thing could happen to any aftermarkt company including the above mentioned.
Also, the above companies produce CARB and 50 State legal parts but they also build non emession legal parts as well. It's against Fedral law to remove or temper with Emession parts on a car right? So how is Holley/Edelbrock able to produce and legally sell manifolds that delete the EGR valve? The same thing with some of the air cleaners that delete the pre-heat tube that runs from the exhaust manifold to the air cleaner on older vehicles. This is tube is considered an emession device and want pass inspection in soem states.
The core of this problem is corprate America and the EPA. I really don't think even the tree hugers has anything to do with it. There is no real noticable gain from targeting smaller companies like Casper nor is there any real gain from targeting older cars. I guess it makes the EPA/Government officals look good on paper to tree hugers come election time etc.
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2006
Our system is so f-ed up. If they want to do something, start pulling over these old pos dump trucks that are driving around pumping black smoke in the air. I can't be they get away with that kind of sh!t and there over at Caspers banging on his door.
The EPA is a joke!
The EPA is a joke!
Just to set the record straight, and further explain the function of the O2 SIM:
The product was designed to turn off the SES light when an aftermarket component was put on an OBD II car; be it a "cat back" system, long tube headers, high flow cat, or other such component. The code was most certainly set on many vehicles when these components were installed, but not on all vehicles. The earlier OBDII cars were more tolerant to aftermarket components, but the later cars were not. The slightest change in the OEM system would set a code.
That was the original intent of the product, and it was sold, marketed and distributed as such, with an OFF ROAD USE ONLY disclaimer. Unfortunately for Caspers, the product was so broadly designed that you could remove the cats on certain vehicles; not imports though. The imports required a fully functional EPA certified cat and cat-back system for the SIM to function properly, otherwise the SES light would be on. And, the biggest problem of all is that the vehicle in many cases tries to correct the SES code condition by increasing the fuel to the mix, resulting in poor gas mileage and more pollution. So, the O2 SIM would prevent that condition...but I was not successful in convincing the EPA that this anamoly created an absolute need for the product. I could not fight any longer.
On the lighter side, did you know that it is illegal to replace or upgrade your injectors, per EPA regulations? That's the next move on their part, just watch.
The next several months will get very interesting in the aftermarket. Stay tuned...
The product was designed to turn off the SES light when an aftermarket component was put on an OBD II car; be it a "cat back" system, long tube headers, high flow cat, or other such component. The code was most certainly set on many vehicles when these components were installed, but not on all vehicles. The earlier OBDII cars were more tolerant to aftermarket components, but the later cars were not. The slightest change in the OEM system would set a code.
That was the original intent of the product, and it was sold, marketed and distributed as such, with an OFF ROAD USE ONLY disclaimer. Unfortunately for Caspers, the product was so broadly designed that you could remove the cats on certain vehicles; not imports though. The imports required a fully functional EPA certified cat and cat-back system for the SIM to function properly, otherwise the SES light would be on. And, the biggest problem of all is that the vehicle in many cases tries to correct the SES code condition by increasing the fuel to the mix, resulting in poor gas mileage and more pollution. So, the O2 SIM would prevent that condition...but I was not successful in convincing the EPA that this anamoly created an absolute need for the product. I could not fight any longer.
On the lighter side, did you know that it is illegal to replace or upgrade your injectors, per EPA regulations? That's the next move on their part, just watch.
The next several months will get very interesting in the aftermarket. Stay tuned...
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2005
what???
how can aftermarket headers change what the upstream o2's see? sure you will have better flow ( with that k& n ) filter too,the computer "sees" this "leaner condition"and richens the mixture,thus where the extra power comes in . but ive NEVER seen a code from this.
the ONLY purpose for these sims is to be able to completely remove the cats.period. as i explained above, the downstream o2's only tell the ecm if the cats are removing the gas,etc from the exhaust.the downstream o2's are not used to adjust the engines air/fuel ratio,only the upstream o2's do this job.if you remove a downstream o2, the only codes will be a p0420 or a p0430 which are the catalitic converter efficiency codes.
anyone replacing the upstream o2's with a sim doesnt make sense?? now if im wrong please show me how,im always ready to learn:biggrin:
The window of calibration for the downstream, not upstream sensors has gotten progressively narrower each year. A simple change of airflow vs. time can cause the calibration to fall out of the OEM window, causing the code. 2005 and newer cars exhibit this scenario regularly. The earlier years don't. If you have worked on many of these OBD II cars across many OEM product lines, throughout all years since 1996, you would know this.
The SIM was designed exactly as I said, not as a replacement for a sensor. But leave it to the aftermarket users out there, and they'll figure out many ways to use them.
Look at all the SIM's out there now...just do an Ebay search sometime. Many are blatant, others are not. The circuitry is different between the different manufacturers and they do not all work the same way. A google search will find you a downloadable schematic or two. There are many ways to skin a cat (pun intended). Caspers won't offer any of them.
The SIM was designed exactly as I said, not as a replacement for a sensor. But leave it to the aftermarket users out there, and they'll figure out many ways to use them.
Look at all the SIM's out there now...just do an Ebay search sometime. Many are blatant, others are not. The circuitry is different between the different manufacturers and they do not all work the same way. A google search will find you a downloadable schematic or two. There are many ways to skin a cat (pun intended). Caspers won't offer any of them.
Mike Licht
I was here first
- Joined
- May 23, 2001
Just wait until they figure out that a cold air kit or simple K&N air filter will change the way the air moves through the MAF sensor and move the fuel trims. That is going to be an issue soon as well. Sorry about your problems John, keep your chin up.
Mike
Mike
usetaboost
SAY CAR RAMROD!!
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
just throwing this out there. I gutted the cat, had headers, and magnaflow exhaust on my 86 tpi camaro with 350 ported and polished heads , bigger cam ,a stock chip 305 computer, stock 305 injectors, no ses light except for the freakin EGR occasionally which I never did figure out after replaacing every single egr component. Oh my car only had track use
except for the freakin EGR occasionally which I never did figure out after replaacing every single egr component. Oh my car only had track use
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2005
just throwing this out there. I gutted the cat, had headers, and magnaflow exhaust on my 86 tpi camaro with 350 ported and polished heads , bigger cam ,a stock chip 305 computer, stock 305 injectors, no ses light
your car was odb1, no o2's after the cat.
your other problem with the egr was probably the plug on the egr, very common problem.