DFI 7.0 vs TEC vs FAST

G

gta324

Guest
Hi..

Need some help deciding what EFI unit I should get.

Some things to consider....

1. Would like to use WB02 for WOT tuning.
2. Needs to control TCC
3. Should use GM sensorn, the car is a TPI -89
4. Price
5. Online help, I live in sweden and here there arent any shop who has experience...So I'm on my own on this one.......

Thanks/N.
 
Think the Gn 7 is the only one there with TCC control... easy choice then :)

Contact Jack @ racetronics for more info on that box.(www.racetronix.com)
 
Could I not let the old ECM control TCC parallel with the FAST?

I plan to just hide the old wireharness and install a new one and let the old ECM still hooked in for VATS and so on.........and maybe TCC if its possible.
 
Oct ´02??
Can I find the article on the web, hard to find Us magazines in sweden:(
 
You can do TCC lockup control with any of the 3. To do it with the TEC you use one of the the General Purpose Output. To do it with the FAST you'd have to borrow the fan control circuit and operate a relay for the TCC (you can run the fan with a manual switch).

But if you want a wideband O2 option, that leaves out the Electromotive TEC (they didn't understand such an option 2-years ago when I talked to them about it).

The Gen 7 DFI works with the wideband sensor a little differently than the FAST unit. Lance and Craig at FAST are all the online help you will ever need!
 
That leaves the TEC out....

The 7.0 seems to have a nice TCC control.......

I see no knockretard in the FAST software??

Have got demo versions of both of them......



/N.
 
It is my understanding that the folks at FAST have built a computer for race cars. It is assumed that you will run race gas and thus, knock should not be a factor (unless you go hog-wild with your timing map!)

Perhaps Lance Ward and/or Craig Smith can jump in here, but as I recall, one of them mentioned that by eliminating the knock retard feature that allowed them to "fit" other options onto the computer's chips.

I am not a FAST or DFI expert...just relaying to you what I have heard. Lance and/or Craig should be at work by now (it is 9:00 AM in the central USA time zone). Give them a call 001-810-225-2700.
 
I just found out a very disturbing fact about the new 7.0 DFI box. There are three levels of software used to program the computer and the disturbing part is that there is a provision for a EMIC to add a password to lock out the owner from his own computer.

This is disturbing fact that a manufacturer would limit their customers. Leaving them to be at the mercy of a EMIC. I know of a local EMIC that has melted many 6.0 cars and has no business tuning anything. This is who is being protected by this provision.

This is a completely irresponsible action by any manufacturer, let alone by one that is still having many problems with their products, i.e.,wideband, datalogging, etc..
 
i think it would be a good thing to limit what the end user can change in the Gen 7.0 there are A LOT of maps for the end user to screw up
 
Originally posted by blownvette
I just found out a very disturbing fact about the new 7.0 DFI box. There are three levels of software used to program the computer and the disturbing part is that there is a provision for a EMIC to add a password to lock out the owner from his own computer.

This is disturbing fact that a manufacturer would limit their customers. Leaving them to be at the mercy of a EMIC. I know of a local EMIC that has melted many 6.0 cars and has no business tuning anything. This is who is being protected by this provision.

This is a completely irresponsible action by any manufacturer, let alone by one that is still having many problems with their products, i.e.,wideband, datalogging, etc..
Click to expand...
\

That is a very one-sided perspective of the picture blownvette.
There are only about a dozen screens accessible with the Pro version of Calmap + dongle that are not with the base software. These screens are for VERY advanced parameters that that your average tuner has no business or idea how to adjust. The fact that these parameters are accessible at all is a bonus. The competitors boxes have these parameters fixed in their firmware and can not be changed via a laptop.

The Calmap password allows the vendor to select the parameters / screens visible and adjustable by the end user. This has two advantages. It limits the amount of alterations the end user can effect on the tune-up. This can help reduce a Speed Shop’s liability factor. Some customers make alterations which damage their motors. These customers then look to claim warranty while firmly denying tinkering with the calibration.. Secondly the password prevents end users from plagiarizing much R&D work many shops place into developing their calibrations. Just because a customer bought the hardware does not give them the right to proliferate the software. I personally have spent much time developing calibrations for the FAST system to serve my local market. On more than a couple occasions I have had people show up at my door asking me to help them tune the glitches out of their tune-up. To my amazement I find that their base calibration is one of my own that the customer has acquired through some generous fellow FAST owner across the city. To add insult to injury I then usually find out that Mr. Joe customer has bought his system south of the border from Mr. Discount. Mr. Discount’s mentality is …I’ll blow it out the back door cheap because this customer is too far away to be a burden so why not slip a few easy bucks in my pocket today for some sudz and someone else can worry about the support. The humorous part is Mr. Joe customer expects me to feel sorry for him and pad the bill or even better yet do it for free because he spent so much money on this system with no local support. I usually explain that I am not on FAST’s payroll and that if he would have bought the hardware from me to begin with he would have had all the free support he could want including a calibration that worked for his combination.

The password does not stop you from blanking the entire calibration and starting from scratch using the very well laid out MAP generators built into the Calmap software.

The EMIC program itself is a good idea as all too many speed shops sell EFI systems without a clue as to what they are doing. Although the EMIC program does not guarantee that a tuner will be top notch, it will ensure that they have received a good amount of training with the DFI product on its theory of operation and practical application. This is not to say that some dealers are lacking in the application department but that typically comes with hands on experience. The depth of understanding is typically related to their background whether it is in mechanics, electronics or both. The EMIC program attempts to reduce the amount of support required at the manufacturer's level and places the end user support in the retailer’s realm. This makes end user support more readily accessible and reduces the amount of repetitive questions being posed at all levels of support.

Both the Accel DFI Gen 7 and FAST are good systems. Some people find the Gen 7 intimidating as it has a new layout and more new features than some other products. This was the same deal we went through years ago when people were graduating from the old DFI system to the FAST system. As tuners become more familiar with the Gen 7 I am sure it will find a firm spot in the marketplace.

Jack :cool:
Racetronix

PS. There are no current issues with the wide band O2 on the Gen 7. I have had no issues with the data logging on the Gen 7 so I suspect this is more of a laptop / hardware issue.
 
So Jack - Is the Gen 7 DFI for the Turbo Regals finally available? I know they had a part number listed for our cars, but the actual box wasn't available as of a year ago.
 
Wow, their website list a lot of nice features. IN addition to all these bells/whistles, they have a self diagnostic system built in, with GM type trouble codes and all. My FAST has "certain strategies built in in the event of a sensor or other failure", but no way of telling me theres something wrong. Kinda gives me an ill feeling not being able to know somethings wrong without having a laptop hooked up and monitoring every input at all times.

Does the Gen7 when used with a particular interface, illuminate the factory SES light in the event of a malfunction as well?

This does seem like a nice box....
 
The three levels of software caused me great difficulty in tuning my car when it had a Gen 7 on it. The standard level does not have any of the things you need to get the car to idle. Basically, you can set idle speed and that's about it. You don't have the ability to set the iac opening point, or any of the other stuff you need to get a car idling well. At WOT, my car ran like a bat out of hell, but idle and part throttle left a lot to be desired. Could I have paid extra for a more advanced level of sw? Yes. If I'd known. The wonderful guys at Turbo People said......"Oh, no. You don't need that. " BS! You have to at least buy the Sportsmen level sw to have those features available IF YOU DON'T HAVE A GEN 7 TUNER LOCALLY. I agree that the pro level is not needed by anyone but a serious tuner, but it's imperative to buy the sportsmen sw. I'm not too turned on by the password protection either. I was at a race where a friend, who's car had been tuned by Spetter, really needed access to something that spetter had locked him out of. After seeing that, I ordered another FAST unit for my race car and moved the DFI to another car. I was told point blank by the DFI product manager that it had nothing to do with keeping people from blowing their cars up. He said it was to protect the knowledge of their best tuners so that their fuel maps didn't get used by everyone else, as Jack said.

Shane Hill
NMRA Drag Radial 10046
9.70 at 144mph on Drag Radials
 
Shane,

You are missing the big picture with respect to the PW protection on the DFI Gen 7. It exists both to keep people from blowing their cars up, and also to protect the intellectual property of the person who created the calibration for that particular combination.

The password system allows the tuners to keep people out of sensitive areas of the calibration so that:

1.) They can't change a given table or setting that has already been preset by the tuner -- ie: there should be no reason for the setting to be touched as long as the ECM remains connected to the engine that it was tuned for.

2.) The owner of the car, or anybody else with a laptop computer, can't access critical areas of the calibration, like the fuel/spark tables... and copy the intellectual property of the tuner that created the map. It also works very well to keep someone from stealing a fuel map from one of their competitors to use in their own piece.

If the ECM needs to be moved to a different engine, the password system, as Jack noted, does not prevent ANYONE from overwriting the entire existing calibration and reprogramming it for another combination.


Jack -- Thanks for the very informative post, I think it helps people to see things from the tuner's perspective once in a while.

blownvette -- Your post clearly shows how much experience you have in the area of fuel injection. javascript:smilie(':confused:')
confused
 
No. I do understand the reasons. I'm not saying that having it password protected is all bad. I can understand a tuner wanting to protect his intellectual property. But flexibility also has to be given to those of us who do need to make changes. It's a catch 22 situation. I just choose to not be caught in the middle. If I pay $2k+ for a unit, and then another $500 to $1000 to have a tuner tune my combo, I don't want to be stuck somewhere without that tuner present if I deem some changes are necessary. If I decide to change the cam, chances are that the fuel map will be off. So in this instance, I'm left with starting over completely and programming my own new map, trucking my car half way across the country, or flying the tuner in. That's counterproductive in my eyes when I could spend 5 minutes tweaking the program I already paid for. Just my .02.

Shane
 
Originally posted by NoSlix
No. I do understand the reasons. I'm not saying that having it password protected is all bad. I can understand a tuner wanting to protect his intellectual property. But flexibility also has to be given to those of us who do need to make changes. It's a catch 22 situation. I just choose to not be caught in the middle. If I pay $2k+ for a unit, and then another $500 to $1000 to have a tuner tune my combo, I don't want to be stuck somewhere without that tuner present if I deem some changes are necessary. If I decide to change the cam, chances are that the fuel map will be off. So in this instance, I'm left with starting over completely and programming my own new map, trucking my car half way across the country, or flying the tuner in. That's counterproductive in my eyes when I could spend 5 minutes tweaking the program I already paid for. Just my .02.

Shane
Click to expand...

Then that is something you would have to work out with your tuner / supplier not Accel. If you have an issue with the password be up front with your tuner / supplier. I don't see how this is an Accel problem just because they offer the feature. The tuner can specify which screens you have access to so that you can address minor changes to your MAPs. If you support your LOCAL dealer then why would you have to travel great distances to acquire service?

Jack :cool:
Racetronix
 
Jack,

If we were talking about 500hp, it'd be one thing. There are plenty of EMICs that I would take my car to. But in the case of myself and my friend, we're talking about 1000hp+ and there are not a lot of EMICs that I would trust with my $25,000 motor.

You're absolutely correct in that the PW issue is between me and the EMIC. That's the problem my friend ran into......his EMIC that he'd spent a lot of money with, didn't want to give him or anyone else access to his program after the fact. Like I said, I understand the reason behind it. But I can also see how there can be a lot of problems when you start doing that.

Don't get me wrong.......the Gen 7 does some great stuff. The startup tool is fabulous, the built in 2 step is great, the button to lock the timing is great. All great things that the competitors don't have. But this gentleman was saying he needed it to be user friendly since he was across the Atlantic and I wanted him to know what he could possibly be getting into beforehand. Especially since someone may not realize that they'd need the sportsman level sw for some things that an onhand tuner could do with his own "key".

Shane
 
I'm still confused.......

And this is a very intresting Topic!

I live in Sweden and there are NO EMIC dealers here or FAST either so I really need to have a good working program that is easy to tune. And probably alot of online help........

My car will be a daily driven racer so It's a must with a good and steady idle.

A few thing I've consider right now....

DFI: - knock sensor x-tra $$
- Have TCC control, good!
- seq. inj. do I need it???
- Online help??
- Does is use GM sensors????


FAST: - No knock sensor......
- No TCC control, can I use my stock ECM parallellt to control TCC?
- Seq.inj. x-tra $$
- Great online help
- Does it use GM sensors??

Keep the post comin!

thanks/N
 
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