No I wont I will promise you that. Its not that easy.
XTSM - Extreme TSM
- Thread starter V6RACER
- Start date
No I wont I will promise you that. Its not that easy.
turbogtq70
New Member
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2003
some of you may or may not know me, but i raced TSM a few years ago.
i don't post on here much, but wanted to say something about this. i now
have a stage 2 car and wouldn't mind racing a TSM again.
the weight is to much. you are already giving the 109 blocks a weight break.
why slap a penalty to the stage cars. like steve said. i don't think the stage
cars are any faster than the 109 cars with the same turbo.
i would have to spend $1500 on a turbo then put 300 pounds to my car to race.
sure doesn't make it very appealing. i have seen buick guys not even race buick
events because of the rules.
how are you deciding on the rules now days??? is it still a vote with the guys that
race???
art frye
i don't post on here much, but wanted to say something about this. i now
have a stage 2 car and wouldn't mind racing a TSM again.
the weight is to much. you are already giving the 109 blocks a weight break.
why slap a penalty to the stage cars. like steve said. i don't think the stage
cars are any faster than the 109 cars with the same turbo.
i would have to spend $1500 on a turbo then put 300 pounds to my car to race.
sure doesn't make it very appealing. i have seen buick guys not even race buick
events because of the rules.
how are you deciding on the rules now days??? is it still a vote with the guys that
race???
art frye
Hold on there John - you're blaming ME for this - REALLY?
I just posed the question in another thread "what's the point of 109 class racing anymore". I never said one thing about TSM or any other class in particular. I was just trying to put it on the table as more of a "what if" more than anything. I don't have a thing to do with the TSM rules or starting this rules discussion - that's Jason's department. You're absolutely correct in that I'm not racing the class - at least not currently as I don't want to put a stage rotating assembly in a stock 109 block. You should know where I'm coming from on this as I believe you were telling me at BG about breaking a block recently. I agree the whole weight issue has gotten a little out of hand.
Bottom line for me is if the rules get changed so be it - if they don't that's fine too but don't go blaming ME for it either way.
johnplogii
Senior citizen
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2005
Will, I like you & I'm not upset or anything but you did get this whole ball rolling with your thread. Other people took it & ran with it & now we have a new class where a car that was ready to race will bring up the rear without making major changes. I guess I don't understand what your point was if you had no intention of racing. What was your intention with your thread?
I thought this was going to be a rules discussion thread but it seems the class has been changed already for the most part - that was NOT my intention. My intention with the other thread was just to put the question on the table as to WHY "109" block class racing is even a big deal anymore - that's all. The whole thing started years ago as a more "affordable" class but as with any heads up class it quickly went ballistic as the racers kept pushing the rules and went faster and faster. Nothing wrong with that but I don't get the point anymore other than just to say you rolled the dice and made it live for a while with a 109 block. It's not affordable when you are risking a nice rotating assembly among other things by running a stock block. My point was simply the fact that you could take what you guys are running now and spend a little extra on a stage block that was designed for the power and be able to turn it up safely without going through multiple blocks in the process - cheaper in the long run. Who said I have no intention of racing? I have a car that doesn't fit the current THS rules and could probably be quite competitive in TSM with a different bullet but I'm not even going to entertain any class that mandates a 109 block be used. That WAS/IS my point of the other thread. If the rules were to change I might bring a car out for the class.
I didn't think anyone would go for the idea and it was mentioned in the other thread that the current TSM rules wouldn't be up for change for another year. I just wanted to put it out there as food for thought more or less.
Looks to me like a few had the same idea but weren't willing to put it on the table therefore I'm the scapegoat now. Oh well.............
Walt and John, how much weight did you guys have to add to your cars to get to 3400 lbs?
johnplogii
Senior citizen
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2005
I was 20lbs under weight & added some fuel to get it to 3415. Back here at home the same setup on 4 wheel scales weighs 3430 so I'm not sure if I was ever under weight or the scales may have been off a little? However much less the new weights are, thats how much weight I would need to remove from my car.
Your definetely not to blame. You posed the question, but there were a handfull of people that expressed interest in running tsm if stage blocks are allowed. I'll take some blame. I somewhat posed the idea last year when rules came up, but not being a current racer I don't feel I have much say in it and no one else seemed to be interested.
If these rules stick or as long as the stage 2 block is allowed, I fully intend to carry on building car to compete in this class. It was my original goal with my car.
Guys, I understand all the frustrations that come with changes, but if we don't change now we are just going to die on the vine in TSM. I hope that any potential racers and current racers don't look at the comments from the people from outside and make a decision based on that alone.
After talking with alot of other racers that were willing to reach out and talk one on one instead of just posting. Here are a few changes that will happen and I've updated the rules on the sticky post to reflect:
-Exhaust must muffle & exit in stock location
-Wastegate must plumb back into exhaust
-Series II style engines will run at Aluminum/109 weights (3450)
-Weights have been adjusted up on 109 3250 iron/3450 AL
As I stated before, these rules will be adjusted in the future after races for fairness. There is a 200lb difference between each combo.
This is still a 109 class with the stipulation that stage engines can join in the fun with additional weight. If you think a stage engine shouldn't have a weight penalty you haven't done enough homework.
This is the only way to level the field and keep the weights realistic. (within 3250-3650)
Will, sorry that you were drug into this thread. What you posted really hits home. We have to drive car count or we might as well stay at the house instead of racing. Sometimes I feel that people would rather have 3-4 cars at an event instead of full field (16 cars) and have several rounds of exciting racing.
After talking with alot of other racers that were willing to reach out and talk one on one instead of just posting. Here are a few changes that will happen and I've updated the rules on the sticky post to reflect:
-Exhaust must muffle & exit in stock location
-Wastegate must plumb back into exhaust
-Series II style engines will run at Aluminum/109 weights (3450)
-Weights have been adjusted up on 109 3250 iron/3450 AL
As I stated before, these rules will be adjusted in the future after races for fairness. There is a 200lb difference between each combo.
This is still a 109 class with the stipulation that stage engines can join in the fun with additional weight. If you think a stage engine shouldn't have a weight penalty you haven't done enough homework.
This is the only way to level the field and keep the weights realistic. (within 3250-3650)
Will, sorry that you were drug into this thread. What you posted really hits home. We have to drive car count or we might as well stay at the house instead of racing. Sometimes I feel that people would rather have 3-4 cars at an event instead of full field (16 cars) and have several rounds of exciting racing.
No apologies necessary Jason. I will never understand why some are so resistant to change - if they want to point fingers at me that's fine. While it was never my intention to change TSM or any class in particular, I think you as well as a few others see the need for a change if this thing is going to be viable in the future. I give you props for MAKING the changes knowing you'd get flack for it.
The updated rules/weights look good to me and completely fair as a STARTING point. The iron headed boys may even have a slight advantage at that weight - who knows. I personally think this is a good move and although you may lose a few I think it will be a wash at first and open the class up for growth which is what it needs. Even though I am going down another path with my other car under construction, if time and budget allows I will try to bring something out for the class even if its slow just to show my support. It won't be slow for long though...............:biggrin:
The updated rules/weights look good to me and completely fair as a STARTING point. The iron headed boys may even have a slight advantage at that weight - who knows. I personally think this is a good move and although you may lose a few I think it will be a wash at first and open the class up for growth which is what it needs. Even though I am going down another path with my other car under construction, if time and budget allows I will try to bring something out for the class even if its slow just to show my support. It won't be slow for long though...............:biggrin:
southern boost
Member
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2002
THIS OFF THE STICKY AT THE TOP OF THE FORUM .
2012 RULES
MAIN RULE:*** All rules subject to change due to fairness ***
3250 lbs - Iron Production "8445" casting head / 109 / 71mm
3450 lbs - Aluminum (Champion Style) head / 109 & Series II / 71mm
3650 lbs - Any other block (Stage I & II on/off center, etc) / any style head / 71mm
-100 lbs for 67 3-bolt turbo from any combo
+100 lbs for Alcohol injection
*Safety requirments per track tech
*Factory Stock Appearing External Body must have headlights/tailights (81-87 Regal)
*FSA glass windows
*One 3 bolt turbo up to 71.5mm inducer/103mm exducer in factory stock location (No V-band downpipes)
*No Nitrous Oxide injection
*Iron heads must be production "8445" heads
*Stock suspension/mounting points (no wheelie bars)
*No mini tubs, notched frame ok.
*Any Exhaust: must exit in stock location
*Wastegate must plumb back into downpipe
*Gasoline fuel only (includes E85, Sunoco, VP, etc)
*Alcohol Injection +100 lbs
*70mm Throttle body/cast intake manifold
*Tires - 15" wheel Front must be 3.5" wide footprint. Rear tires up to 29.5" x 10.5"(Slick), 29.5" x 12.5" DOT (ET-Street), or up to 295 series (Drag radial)
*Any GM automatic transmission
*Any GM differential, Dana 60, or Ford 9"
Ultimate Goal
-The 71 turbo would limit the overall power potential to keep class ET close
-The 109 weights would improve 109 longevity
-Stage rules would allow more cars to join in with minimal changes
-Allows for many different combos to be competitive
2012 RULES
MAIN RULE:*** All rules subject to change due to fairness ***
3250 lbs - Iron Production "8445" casting head / 109 / 71mm
3450 lbs - Aluminum (Champion Style) head / 109 & Series II / 71mm
3650 lbs - Any other block (Stage I & II on/off center, etc) / any style head / 71mm
-100 lbs for 67 3-bolt turbo from any combo
+100 lbs for Alcohol injection
*Safety requirments per track tech
*Factory Stock Appearing External Body must have headlights/tailights (81-87 Regal)
*FSA glass windows
*One 3 bolt turbo up to 71.5mm inducer/103mm exducer in factory stock location (No V-band downpipes)
*No Nitrous Oxide injection
*Iron heads must be production "8445" heads
*Stock suspension/mounting points (no wheelie bars)
*No mini tubs, notched frame ok.
*Any Exhaust: must exit in stock location
*Wastegate must plumb back into downpipe
*Gasoline fuel only (includes E85, Sunoco, VP, etc)
*Alcohol Injection +100 lbs
*70mm Throttle body/cast intake manifold
*Tires - 15" wheel Front must be 3.5" wide footprint. Rear tires up to 29.5" x 10.5"(Slick), 29.5" x 12.5" DOT (ET-Street), or up to 295 series (Drag radial)
*Any GM automatic transmission
*Any GM differential, Dana 60, or Ford 9"
Ultimate Goal
-The 71 turbo would limit the overall power potential to keep class ET close
-The 109 weights would improve 109 longevity
-Stage rules would allow more cars to join in with minimal changes
-Allows for many different combos to be competitive
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2001
I liked the TSM outlaw name better
turbotwister
FAST COMPANY PERFORMANCE
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2002
Hi everyone,
I originally built my car for Tsm a few years back and then decided to build a stage 2 engine for my car.although i have a stage 2 my combo is more oriented toward a tsm combo which has put me into limbo.I ran TSL and TSO in bowling green even though i was extremely outgunned.I will most definetly compete in XTSM since my car is presently 3610lbs with me in it and the only change i need is to switch back to a 3 bolt turbo.
I do however have one thing i feel should be changed.I feel the 3650 weight limit for stage 2's should be more specific in reference to head choice/bore size and/or cubic inches.I have a 3.8 bore stage 2 with champion heads and dont think i have any more advanatge over a 109 engine other than more head bolts.i realize i should be weight penalized but i just feel the 3650 weight is a little extreme for my situation.if i had a 4 inch bore and/or stage 2 heads i could understand it.basically what i propose is a different weight limit for conventional heads vs stage 2 heads and/or bore size.this makes perfect sense to me.let me know what you guys think.
Thanks,Nick Piccione
I originally built my car for Tsm a few years back and then decided to build a stage 2 engine for my car.although i have a stage 2 my combo is more oriented toward a tsm combo which has put me into limbo.I ran TSL and TSO in bowling green even though i was extremely outgunned.I will most definetly compete in XTSM since my car is presently 3610lbs with me in it and the only change i need is to switch back to a 3 bolt turbo.
I do however have one thing i feel should be changed.I feel the 3650 weight limit for stage 2's should be more specific in reference to head choice/bore size and/or cubic inches.I have a 3.8 bore stage 2 with champion heads and dont think i have any more advanatge over a 109 engine other than more head bolts.i realize i should be weight penalized but i just feel the 3650 weight is a little extreme for my situation.if i had a 4 inch bore and/or stage 2 heads i could understand it.basically what i propose is a different weight limit for conventional heads vs stage 2 heads and/or bore size.this makes perfect sense to me.let me know what you guys think.
Thanks,Nick Piccione
