XTSM - Extreme TSM
- Thread starter V6RACER
- Start date
Robert Wilson
Member
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
I agree with everything you are saying here Steve.
for what reason
I would not try to get my current car down to 3400 lbs to be possibly competitive. I would rather keep the bigger turbo and have the weight penalty in my case.
Steve, why do you feel that the difference between 109 and stage needs to be just 100lbs?? That gives the current rule 109's only a 50lb break. Thoughts?
steve hughes
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2002
Clint i don't see any difference in performance. My first stage motor combo was the same as my tsm combo. 3.875" bore 3.4 "stroke. Only difference was the cam and turbo. 3 bolt 76 gtq on the stage, 3 bolt 70 hpq on the 109. When i broke the crank in the stage 2 i went to 3.900" bore 3.625" stroke, went from small valve gn1 to Ta heads, from stoke intake i made fit the on center stage to a champion intake. All 3 combos ran the same ets. But the 109 with less turbo. Stage motors Will break the same as a 109 if detonated a few times with the combo maxed out. It takes a few more times to do it but results still are hurt parts.With a stage motor break cranks or hurt pistons instead of blowing head gaskets.
steve hughes
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2002
Has anybody else run similar combos 109 verses a stage or simple stock stroke 109 vs stroker 109 with the same combo?
steve hughes
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2002
I ran TSE with the stage motor at BG before i got written out of the rules. I don't run any classes right now. Next year my local track is running an 8.5 limited street class i plan to run and TSM if it pans out.
HRpartsNstuff
Member
- Joined
- May 27, 2001
Hope I can chime in here without causing any issues
Got winded… not sure how that happened , so I will make it into 2 posts
Let's start with it looks like some good ideas here & LOT's of different opinions. The last time I ran my car, was a looooong loooooong time ago. My car was capable of running 10.70's in street trim on slicks, and I drove it a lot. Since I was (and still am) on a budget, I made stuff myself & tried to figure out how to make it run faster without throwing money at it. If I had the money I would have taken that route too I ported my own heads & sold the champion heads just to have extra money to buy Dave Englands old turbo when he stepped up. I made my own 4" downpipe, because I felt like it and couldn't afford a new 3" one & felt it was a power advantage. That is what sparked the TH 3.5" pipes. Making my own suspension parts back then is what sparked the suspension parts we make now. Breaking my motor mounts is what sparked the poly mm's and also my business. My car also had the air cond removed when I got it, and never felt the need to put it back in. So with all that said, here are my thoughts...
When you have classes that are heads up & no limits, that INSPIRES people to figure out how to make more HP and get it to hook up.
While rules are needed to keep it competitive, they also hinder new product development & slow the advancement of the cars.
But that does focus the tweaking to the items allowed by the rules & finding some new performance there.
Class or index racing might slow the need for performance enhancing items since they become less of a necessity or goal.
I agree the index racing could be a LOT of fun, and hope to see it along side the other heads up classes. You can have the driver ego without the budget to go super fast or stress parts too much or change the car every time the rules changed. Plus you can still put down a BIG number if you want to for bragging rights on that too.
Maybe even include the GS/BBB guys to make it more interesting!
The index racing also seems to be more of a drivers game. I would have GLADLY tried it back in my day, simply because of my 4" DP and no air kept me from ALL the heads up classes. I had to race brackets at every event, and just did that because I love to race & got a LOT more runs in brkt1. I wanted to run heads up & pro-tree VERY bad, but never had the chance. With all the odd-ball combinations out there, and more performance items available every year (that have the potential of going against the rules), the index classes make even more sense. BUT, they are not a car/engine builders place to have an ego, which is why some will never like it. I think there may be room for both & would like to see it tried, never know…
PS - BRKT1 at the Nat's paid out -0- this year, what a bummer!!!!!!!!!
TSM seems to be more of a driver AND engine/car builders game. A LOT of the excitement around the class in the past and present is how fast will someone run with their car (and stk blk). With the block out of the equation, it may lose that appeal. While changing things to allow more cars is a GREAT idea, it will come with drawbacks. It may offend the same amount of racers that it appeals to. I would like to see ANY changes that allow the cars to be SAFER. While the stg blk should do that, it opens up other challenges with weight breaks & policing things etc. Letting people run combinations that are meeting other class rules outside the Buick arena is a SUPER idea IMO. That makes more sense to the person wanting to race outside the Buick classes/rules. If they choose to build it for their local classes or non-Buick pro classes, THAT could be why the car count drops. Also, if someone seems to dominate the class & always run good numbers, that can also drop people from the class. That's unfortunate, but part of life. If I am in the class, it motivates me to do better. If building a car for a class, it makes me look at other classes I have a better chance at.
Got winded… not sure how that happened
, so I will make it into 2 posts Let's start with it looks like some good ideas here & LOT's of different opinions. The last time I ran my car, was a looooong loooooong time ago. My car was capable of running 10.70's in street trim on slicks, and I drove it a lot. Since I was (and still am) on a budget, I made stuff myself & tried to figure out how to make it run faster without throwing money at it. If I had the money I would have taken that route too
I ported my own heads & sold the champion heads just to have extra money to buy Dave Englands old turbo when he stepped up. I made my own 4" downpipe, because I felt like it and couldn't afford a new 3" one & felt it was a power advantage. That is what sparked the TH 3.5" pipes. Making my own suspension parts back then is what sparked the suspension parts we make now. Breaking my motor mounts is what sparked the poly mm's and also my business. My car also had the air cond removed when I got it, and never felt the need to put it back in. So with all that said, here are my thoughts...When you have classes that are heads up & no limits, that INSPIRES people to figure out how to make more HP and get it to hook up.
While rules are needed to keep it competitive, they also hinder new product development & slow the advancement of the cars.
But that does focus the tweaking to the items allowed by the rules & finding some new performance there.
Class or index racing might slow the need for performance enhancing items since they become less of a necessity or goal.
I agree the index racing could be a LOT of fun, and hope to see it along side the other heads up classes. You can have the driver ego without the budget to go super fast or stress parts too much or change the car every time the rules changed. Plus you can still put down a BIG number if you want to for bragging rights on that too.
Maybe even include the GS/BBB guys to make it more interesting!
The index racing also seems to be more of a drivers game. I would have GLADLY tried it back in my day, simply because of my 4" DP and no air kept me from ALL the heads up classes. I had to race brackets at every event, and just did that because I love to race & got a LOT more runs in brkt1. I wanted to run heads up & pro-tree VERY bad, but never had the chance. With all the odd-ball combinations out there, and more performance items available every year (that have the potential of going against the rules), the index classes make even more sense. BUT, they are not a car/engine builders place to have an ego, which is why some will never like it. I think there may be room for both & would like to see it tried, never know…
PS - BRKT1 at the Nat's paid out -0- this year, what a bummer!!!!!!!!!
TSM seems to be more of a driver AND engine/car builders game. A LOT of the excitement around the class in the past and present is how fast will someone run with their car (and stk blk). With the block out of the equation, it may lose that appeal. While changing things to allow more cars is a GREAT idea, it will come with drawbacks. It may offend the same amount of racers that it appeals to. I would like to see ANY changes that allow the cars to be SAFER. While the stg blk should do that, it opens up other challenges with weight breaks & policing things etc. Letting people run combinations that are meeting other class rules outside the Buick arena is a SUPER idea IMO. That makes more sense to the person wanting to race outside the Buick classes/rules. If they choose to build it for their local classes or non-Buick pro classes, THAT could be why the car count drops. Also, if someone seems to dominate the class & always run good numbers, that can also drop people from the class. That's unfortunate, but part of life. If I am in the class, it motivates me to do better. If building a car for a class, it makes me look at other classes I have a better chance at.
HRpartsNstuff
Member
- Joined
- May 27, 2001
In a tighter economy with gas prices up there & other issues, seems the slower & more open classes will do better for car count. Look at THS, and you can see how this is a PERFECT class for the average Buick racer. The cars are still VERY streetable, and the track/NHRA rules are easier at the 10.0 and slower levels. With more open rules, it doesn't alienate racers from the rules. Plus it's close racing and people want to see how fast they can push it, so it is popular for racers AND spectators. If I was building a car, I would build a THS right now simply because it's easier on parts & budget & I feel I have a good chance of winning. Not going to happen since it's not in the budget, but nice to think about it & hope.
Also, as a sponsor, it is VERY hard to have any kind of payout for all the classes at all the events. PLEASE do NOT come up with another class!!!!!!!!!!
To other event coordinators that are not into the turbo cars as much, it already looks like alphabet soup classes to them. Plus having the word "street" in them gets stretched a LOT as the ET's go up. I would think if you got people on board for sure with TSE or TSL, it could easily be a class at the other events like Norwalk/Osceola etc. If they know ahead of time & especially if someone gathers sponsorship so it doesn't cut into the other payouts and brings more cars & spectators to the event, not sure why they wouldn't like it. It just can't be a last minute thing & expect to be noticed & catered to. FYI - As a sponsor, we NEVER required any class to do/have anything to be eligible for our general payouts. We have done extra for those that run our suspension parts, but never a requirement or pushed into the rules. That should ALWAYS be left up to the racers IN that class to figure out.
And last of all, it would be nice IMO to see the THS class adapt rules to keep it at 10.0 level & slower for a while. That is what makes it VERY appealing IMO. The TSM class running low 9's seems to be a good place to be, with TSO going low 8's (all generally speaking to be competitive). TSE and TSL seem to fall where the rules let them, which allow possibly more combo variations to be included. If not, I would say they may just get absorbed by the other classes as the years go along. It is already happening at some events anyway. Without the car count, you won't have a class stand out on its own. Plus every time you change the rules, you force people to spend more money to stay competitive.
Another thought, less weight = less stress on the 109 blocks! A weight break for smaller turbo 109 & leave everything the same might get more people interested. Then they know the block has a better chance to hold up, and they don’t have to run 8’s to be competitive (as letting in stg blks & giving weight break on 109’s & NO change with turbo etc would get even faster). I think it might help to pick the ET you want the class to be at, make the rules hold it to that level (and adj things as cars go faster), and make rules open for more racers and fit outside classes/events, and not blur things with other TXX classes (on ET’s or rules). That is when it gets boring and confusing for the track/event people and spectators. Each class needs to have something distinguishing them from the other classes.
TSS = stock appearing & go fast
THS = 10.0 to 10.5 that fits a LOT of cars,
TSM = fastest stock blocks within the rules,
TSO = fast class with stg blocks,
TSE and TSL = Unfortunately for me, I am not sure what distinguishes them now or will be if rules get shifted around. That might be why car count is low, and they get pushed into other classes at the smaller events. What about combining these 2 with updated rules to allow more cars??? Payouts would be higher for less classes too, that’s simple economics from a sponsor standpoint.
And seems to me the stg block will definitely be a performance advantage, but time will tell exactly how much. While it isn’t a power “adder”, it does allow the motor to run harder with the same parts (or new parts within the rules). Plus, if things are flexing/moving like a 109 block may let happen, it could change how the rings seal & need more clearance on crank/rods & limit RPM etc. Plus, boost is really the air that DOESN’T get into an engine. If you can get more air into it easier, the turbo doesn’t work as hard, back pressure drops, and HP should increase. Adding cu.in. or rpm should help, even if it doesn’t figure up on paper or work in every case. Bottom line, you can push it harder with a stg block, and racers will do that with pleasure I don't think it's a common thing, and might be something good for the Buick community to find out. It’s up to the TSM racers to decide if it is a good thing for that class or not. They are the ones that already spent the money to compete, and need to do what it takes to keep car count up to keep the class alive. Whether that is opening up rules, limiting something else (like smaller turbo) to keep it competitive or slow it down or something else is to be determined. No one likes to slow down, but got to keep it interesting for all & keep it SAFE!!! Look at top fuel, 1000 ft rule, not exciting at first & now back to where they left off. I wouldn't limit tires or other items that could make the cars unsafe, since we will always push things tothe limit regardless of the potential dangers. With a couple cars into the wall at the nat's, need to keep it safe #1.
As always, hope something here helps out!!!
Also, as a sponsor, it is VERY hard to have any kind of payout for all the classes at all the events. PLEASE do NOT come up with another class!!!!!!!!!!
To other event coordinators that are not into the turbo cars as much, it already looks like alphabet soup classes to them. Plus having the word "street" in them gets stretched a LOT as the ET's go up. I would think if you got people on board for sure with TSE or TSL, it could easily be a class at the other events like Norwalk/Osceola etc. If they know ahead of time & especially if someone gathers sponsorship so it doesn't cut into the other payouts and brings more cars & spectators to the event, not sure why they wouldn't like it. It just can't be a last minute thing & expect to be noticed & catered to. FYI - As a sponsor, we NEVER required any class to do/have anything to be eligible for our general payouts. We have done extra for those that run our suspension parts, but never a requirement or pushed into the rules. That should ALWAYS be left up to the racers IN that class to figure out.
And last of all, it would be nice IMO to see the THS class adapt rules to keep it at 10.0 level & slower for a while. That is what makes it VERY appealing IMO. The TSM class running low 9's seems to be a good place to be, with TSO going low 8's (all generally speaking to be competitive). TSE and TSL seem to fall where the rules let them, which allow possibly more combo variations to be included. If not, I would say they may just get absorbed by the other classes as the years go along. It is already happening at some events anyway. Without the car count, you won't have a class stand out on its own. Plus every time you change the rules, you force people to spend more money to stay competitive.
Another thought, less weight = less stress on the 109 blocks! A weight break for smaller turbo 109 & leave everything the same might get more people interested. Then they know the block has a better chance to hold up, and they don’t have to run 8’s to be competitive (as letting in stg blks & giving weight break on 109’s & NO change with turbo etc would get even faster). I think it might help to pick the ET you want the class to be at, make the rules hold it to that level (and adj things as cars go faster), and make rules open for more racers and fit outside classes/events, and not blur things with other TXX classes (on ET’s or rules). That is when it gets boring and confusing for the track/event people and spectators. Each class needs to have something distinguishing them from the other classes.
TSS = stock appearing & go fast
THS = 10.0 to 10.5 that fits a LOT of cars,
TSM = fastest stock blocks within the rules,
TSO = fast class with stg blocks,
TSE and TSL = Unfortunately for me, I am not sure what distinguishes them now or will be if rules get shifted around. That might be why car count is low, and they get pushed into other classes at the smaller events. What about combining these 2 with updated rules to allow more cars??? Payouts would be higher for less classes too, that’s simple economics from a sponsor standpoint.
And seems to me the stg block will definitely be a performance advantage, but time will tell exactly how much. While it isn’t a power “adder”, it does allow the motor to run harder with the same parts (or new parts within the rules). Plus, if things are flexing/moving like a 109 block may let happen, it could change how the rings seal & need more clearance on crank/rods & limit RPM etc. Plus, boost is really the air that DOESN’T get into an engine. If you can get more air into it easier, the turbo doesn’t work as hard, back pressure drops, and HP should increase. Adding cu.in. or rpm should help, even if it doesn’t figure up on paper or work in every case. Bottom line, you can push it harder with a stg block, and racers will do that with pleasure
I don't think it's a common thing, and might be something good for the Buick community to find out. It’s up to the TSM racers to decide if it is a good thing for that class or not. They are the ones that already spent the money to compete, and need to do what it takes to keep car count up to keep the class alive. Whether that is opening up rules, limiting something else (like smaller turbo) to keep it competitive or slow it down or something else is to be determined. No one likes to slow down, but got to keep it interesting for all & keep it SAFE!!! Look at top fuel, 1000 ft rule, not exciting at first & now back to where they left off. I wouldn't limit tires or other items that could make the cars unsafe, since we will always push things tothe limit regardless of the potential dangers. With a couple cars into the wall at the nat's, need to keep it safe #1.As always, hope something here helps out!!!
johnplogii
Senior citizen
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2005
The way I see it is we have a rule that states the rules will only get voted on & changed every other year so nothing should be able to change till 2013. I only made one race this year so I'm sure I don't have much say in it but I did spend a good bit of time & money last year getting my car to fit with the rules. Now I will be forced to spend a bunch more money & strip my car down to lose weight, otherwise I will be leaving alot on the table. Seems to me the car count was just starting to go up (10 cars at BG) & now Will starts this whole thing about allowing stage blocks in TSM but he won't even be racing? Do as you guys wish & see what happens but I'm afraid every time you change the rules you just put people back to working on their cars.
Team Banana
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
Somebody give this man a prize!!!!!! He hit the nail on the head.
Btw, congrats on that track outing looks good.
John unless I'm wrong this is what I see, this is a quote from the rules...
XTSM - Extreme Turbo Street Modified is a class based off of the earlier TSM class. To allow more participation the rules will be opened up to allow more combinations of engines. Now 109, Stage I & II, & aftermarket blocks will be able to race together in heads up class like never before.
I would almost read that to say the former "TSM" class no longer exists therefor the every other year vote may no longer exist unless I'm reading something into here that is untrue, almost like wiping the slate clean and starting from scratch
southern boost
Member
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2002
I think leave sh!t alone screw it lot b!tchin for no reason ,let me know what yall decide .
I'm out of this conversation !
I'm out of this conversation !
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2001
I don't have a vote because I haven't entered a Tsm race since 2003, but I have a car in the garage that is 75% done, built to current rules with a 67. I agree that it should be left alone until next years rules changes and as I stated in the other thread, maybe TSL should be revamped for these combinations.
Lonnie what is the expense of putting this combo in a TB? There has to be some type of advantage or you wouldn't try it.
Ill use the LS excuse. IT's CHEEP.
Joe, if you ever go junk yard hunting, turning up a 109 block is getting hard. These series 2 engines are a dime a dozen at any yard. That would be the main reason. Plus the blocks look a little more stout and come with cross bolted mains and what looks like billet mains already. Stock pistons are junk (going off what the s/c 3800 guys tell me.) Not sure of rods and crank though at this point. biggest hurdle appears to be it's fwd trans bolt pattern and headers.
This is correct. They do look stronger and are a dime a dozen (GM Built 25 Million). Nothing has been proven as far as strength or performance. If you look in the 3800 world they go much slower than the LC2 with similar mods. They dont break blocks but again you dont see many TSM HP 3800s. We plan to find out in 2012.
BobbyBuick
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
Man I can't wait to see this.Lonnie will be selling the series2 turbo
Buick drop in kit in 2013
tom robison
ALL UP IN THEM GUTZ
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2004
Yes, Lonnie and I have spent countless hours doing R&D work on puting together a Drop in kit for the 3800 series 2 engine. Plans have been sent to china and parts are being produced in the finest of sweat shops by 10 yr old children for our buick enjoyment. LOL
