Trans + Users-I need settings for high octane

tim87tr

Obsession or Digression?
Joined
Sep 19, 2001
Got my trans + installed, going to run it into the center console soon I think. I have searched for some info on adjusting, but did not find much. I am running a stock turbo/IC, redstripes, and a 93 extender chip. Here are my questions, I just need a starting point for the settings to adjust from.

1) What Base and WOT fuel pressure and Base and WOT timing are you using with 100 and 110 octane?
2) Anyone using this to adjust your fp and timing for SMC alky. I will be getting the SMC sooner than later, I'm sure :) .
 
Originally posted by tim87tr
Everyone out tuning their car with the trans + today :p ?
TTT

Ummm.... actually, yes, I was! :D



The starting point is the simplest:

- Set your Fuel pressure at a point where your idle & light cruise BLMs are as near 128 as possible. It should be somewhere between 42 & 46. If it is out of this range, try adjusting the base setting to bring it in line. (BTW, my Extender needed no adjustments... it was nuts on with the base FP set @ 44.)

- Do not change any of the settings until you have driven it around a bit to see what adjustments would be necessary.



Originally posted by tim87tr
1) What Base and WOT fuel pressure and Base and WOT timing are you using with 100 and 110 octane?

2) Anyone using this to adjust your fp and timing for SMC alky. I will be getting the SMC sooner than later, I'm sure .

I believe the 93 has 19* low gear timing which scales back to 17* when you hit 3rd. Wastegate Duty Cycle is 80% low gears, 75% high... or was it 85% & 80% (what is the chip # you have... I can look it up). I have no experience with 110, but with 100 Unleaded I ran ~22psi 1-2/21psi 3 on a TA49/CAS V2 FM, with 26* to 28* total timing on the street. Base FP was 42# (340M Hot Wired, Accufab, 009s), and I added 4% WOT fuel. O2s were in the 720-740 range with 0.0 KR.

That said, I strongly urge you to start lower 'till you figure out what your car likes. Your stock turbo & IC will create a higher temperature intake charge, and your injectors flow a little less fuel (my INJ PW would hit 105-110% going through the top of third). Work your boost to near the top of the efficiency range (~22psi?) and then build up the timing incrementally 'til you reach the detonation resistance of the 100 fuel. Might be different from tuning with 110, but that's what I do with 100.
 
Dean, thanks for the personal tuning info, just what I wanted to hear. I had only run at the track once, without the trans + and extender, and did use about a 100 octane mix. I do have my static fp set at 44 and the blms are good, near 128 (using SM 2.1).

Yes, my extender is the 19*/17*, 85/80 %wg, low/high gear. I did notice on the sheet that 23/21 is used for alky. I kind of had that number from my alky post research.

With the 100, I will just start higher on adding fp at WOT, and bring my timing up slow to get dialed in on the octane. I knew the race chips sold were around 26*, but I wanted to hear what people were doing with the trans +. So is the 26* at WOT or base timing? We can adjust timing for above and below 3000 rpm.
 
I can give you my insights; for what they're worth.

My chip(as I recall) is a 98 octane variety. Some where around 23/21 on the timing. Don't knw why I went that route but it's still OK, because the T+ is so infinitely tuneable to what you're doing.

It's kind of a fine balancing act between timing, octane(always know exactly what you have in the tank, no guessing), and boost.
There are no hard fast rules because changing any one of those three can radically affect the end result. So you could hear a dozen different ways to set up the T+. Throw alky into the equation and things get just a little more murky (since the resulting octane equivalent isn't quite known at any given point in time). You'll certainly always need to closely monitor knock retard so you back out of any changes that kick it up too high.
Reminds me of another good rule of thumb about knock retard. When on the street on pump gas and fairly low boost (under 18#) the engine can tolerate a little knock retard, nothing over 5* though and for very short durations like on shifts, and try to keep any knock retard in 3rd gear (highest load) below 2.
When racing with higher octane and higher boost (usually over 20#) Never alow ANY knock retard, ever, espesially if you start approaching 25#of boost (hard core high octane runs)

Now, as to timing; While I was in CA, the best gas we could get was oxygenated 91 octane, and I kept the BASE timing pulled back from the chip's 23/21 to 19/17 which allowed me to comfortably run 17# of boost in 1st and 2nd gears, but only 15 in 3rd. My car is either street driven or raced. No in-betweens (commonly called street racing). So the fuel in the tank is either pump gas or 114 octane race gas.
When running 114 octane at the track I run the boost up to 25-27#, and turn the timing up to 29/27.

In most cases these timing adjustments can be made primarilly with the BASE switch. There are ocassions however that may require some finesse. Weather and track conditions will dictate how you choose to attack the problem (problem: spool up on the line). Weather and track altitude will have a huge affect on how you get off the line.
But basically here's how it's done. At high altitude tracks or if the weather is causing slow spool, etc. the best way to quicken the spool up on the line is to pull out timing, so as to spike the EGT's up and get the turbo spinning quicker. With that said, I might go so far as to leave my BASE timing at 0(23/21 on my chip) and set the WOT switch to bring the timing in and up to my 29/27 desired level. As most T+ users know the WOT timing is brought in at just above 3,000 rpm. This generally works out quite nicely since most or all of your spool up time on the line is done below that rpm.

If you're going to be running 100 octane or so, and are confident that's the octane in the car, then I should imagine a good timing level for that (assuming sane boost levels of around 20 or less) would be around 23/21.
If you bump up to 110 octane, it will allow higher boost, and MAYBE higher timing(depending on boost). If you stay around 22# or less of boost you could probably get by with timing around 25/23.

See the trend?

CAUTION:
When at the track, always know exactly what your timing knobs are set to before leaving the pits and heading for the starting line!! This holds true no matter where you're driving, even the street.
My last head gasket can explain to you the reason for that caution note. :rolleyes:

You'll get the hang of it over time. But as you can see it's a balancing act. Knowbody ever said tuning a car for max performance without breaking anything is ever easy. But don't over complicate it either.
Before you make a change in the translator, have an idea in your mind of what results you expect. If you're not sure about what will happen when twisting a dial or throwing a switch, don't.

Now that I'm in WI, and after I've gone through several tanks of pump gas (to get the residual race gas cleaned out) I'll be able to get a better feel for what kind of timing and boost I can run on the 93 octane gas we have out here.
 
Dave, thanks for the great info. I copy all good info into a word file and save and print it for reference. I see the trend you are talking about with the timing. I had somewhat of an idea, but knew the trans + users could help me out with the personal info.

Like you said, I want to have an idea in my mind of what results to expect before making the changes in timing and fuel. This thread will be good reference for future searches on the topic. I searched and did not find a lot of info on this, maybe not many people mess with the timing and fuel, and just buy a race chip.
 
Geez Dave where the heck were ya last week! We were at a high altitude track and I coulda used that timing info. :)
 
Originally posted by tim87tr
Dave, thanks for the great info. I copy all good info into a word file and save and print it for reference. I see the trend you are talking about with the timing. I had somewhat of an idea, but knew the trans + users could help me out with the personal info.

Like you said, I want to have an idea in my mind of what results to expect before making the changes in timing and fuel. This thread will be good reference for future searches on the topic. I searched and did not find a lot of info on this, maybe not many people mess with the timing and fuel, and just buy a race chip.

That's the beauty of the Extender and T+ combo. You don't need two seperate chips. Start keeping a little log book of what settings are best for street and which are best for your brand of racing and pretty soon, you'll only have to make a couple quick adjustments when moving from street to race.
 
Originally posted by TurboDave


That's the beauty of the Extender and T+ combo. You don't need two seperate chips. Start keeping a little log book of what settings are best for street and which are best for your brand of racing and pretty soon, you'll only have to make a couple quick adjustments when moving from street to race.

I write down my mods and car work in a book so I will keep track of the the settings. That's what I thought about the trans +, the extender is such a good chip, just make adjustments to it instead of trying other street and race chips and finding out I don't like them.

When you lost the HG, was it the high timing or low fp that caused the most trouble? I am fairly conservative on making changes, I plan to have plenty of fuel and lower timing and work from there. I ran 19 or 20 lb boost the one time I raced with no kr on 100 octane. I think about 22 psi would be my limit.

I had some people tell me that it's risky to mess with the timing, but really you are taking a chance anyway using a race chip, especially if you are not watching a scantool. The best way I have learned about my car is trying new things myself. Of course i get a lot of good advice on the board and from some local TR friends :) . Otherwise I would have never learned to install exhuasts, posi, injectors, and PTS shift kits :cool: .

While you are in this thread, I saw your craced DS header work on your website. Is the triangle piece in the weld area preventing any more cracks? I have a bad header crack on my T.
 
Originally posted by tim87tr


I write down my mods and car work in a book so I will keep track of the the settings. That's what I thought about the trans +, the extender is such a good chip, just make adjustments to it instead of trying other street and race chips and finding out I don't like them.

When you lost the HG, was it the high timing or low fp that caused the most trouble? I am fairly conservative on making changes, I plan to have plenty of fuel and lower timing and work from there. I ran 19 or 20 lb boost the one time I raced with no kr on 100 octane. I think about 22 psi would be my limit.

I had some people tell me that it's risky to mess with the timing, but really you are taking a chance anyway using a race chip, especially if you are not watching a scantool. The best way I have learned about my car is trying new things myself. Of course i get a lot of good advice on the board and from some local TR friends :) . Otherwise I would have never learned to install exhuasts, posi, injectors, and PTS shift kits :cool: .

While you are in this thread, I saw your craced DS header work on your website. Is the triangle piece in the weld area preventing any more cracks? I have a bad header crack on my T.


When I lost the HG it was MY mistake. Had the boost turned up way to high 27, and wasn't paying close enough attention to my timing setting. I had turned it up to 31 degrees instead of going down to 27 as I had intended to do. Did get one thing out of that run, my quickest and fastest run ever!! ;)
Ran the car the rest of the day on that wounded head gasket without really knowing it.

Yes, the driver's side header with the wedge welded in between the 3-5 tube is still holding (now at least 5 years old) It's on my Daughter's T.
 
I think the KR meter (obviously), and an EGT meter are good tools to have when playing with timing.

Things got hotter quick when I adjusted my timing and with similar boost. Went from 1550 to 1650 in 6 degrees and 1 psi. higher boost.
 
Good point salvageV6 on the EGT. This is something I have thought about adding, and with the higher timing and boost, now would be a good time :) . I was going to wait till I got the SMC alky to buy Steve's EGT, but I think I will get the EGT now since I will be messing with the trans +. And by learning the EGT now, that will be one less thing to learn when I get the SMC kit, which is next on my list.
 
Originally posted by tim87tr

With the 100, I will just start higher on adding fp at WOT, and bring my timing up slow to get dialed in on the octane. I knew the race chips sold were around 26*, but I wanted to hear what people were doing with the trans +. So is the 26* at WOT or base timing? We can adjust timing for above and below 3000 rpm.

I ran it with the base timing unchanged, T+ wise. I didn't retard it because my 49 spooled quickly enough that the last thing I needed was more power down below to blow my tires off even quicker. The timing I added was WOT, and I compensate a little richer WOT too.

Based on my limited experience, though all of it with small turbos, I'm a big proponent of boost being as high as efficiently possible with at least 20* timing with 100 octane fuel. Like I said before, I ran my 49 at ~22psi (atmospheric conditions would vary this reading to as low as 20 and as high as 24) all the time and then compensated with timing. Typically I added 4* to 6* to the ~22* that was already in the chip. I tried 28* once, but I recall it bringing my O2s too low for 100 octane. I never change my base FP setting.

I've been told that this is not possible, to run 22psi & 26* on 100 octane, but apparently no one has told my car. I 'spose it is possible that the T+ is not working, though I doubt it. When I dial in more *, the car feels stronger & the O2s respond accordingly... and I've had multiple boost gauges on the car.

Since you have the 93 chip, start with ~20psi and no timing or fuel changes. Make a full load 3rd gear blast somewhere safe, preferably the track, and read your data. Your car will tell you what to do. Just try to control your urges and only make one change (MAYBE 2 changes early on if you have lots of tuning room) at a time. It will be time consuming as you reach the edge, but the rewards are a lot of fun. Also, don't be afraid of going lower on the O2s than what you have read, like "never below 'XXX' with 'X' fuel. Again, your car will communicate with you via MPH & KR. If you get more MPH with no KR, but the O2s are lower that what folks say they should be, don't worry about it... every car is a little different. Just make sure you have the sense to lift if KR rears it's ugly head so you don't do permanent damage. There is always next time if you have to lift on this pass. When that happens, you now know your limit and will hopefully not do that again>

Dean
 
EGTs are a very good indicator. There will be one (at least) on my new engine.

Dean
 
Originally posted by salvageV6
I would try the Westach K type probe and the Omega HH12 digital meter. A good combo. :)

I searched around with Google and did not see much on these items, but found the Westach site. Any particular TR vendor sell this combo and why do you prefer this over the SMC EGT setup (I assume this is what you are using). Thanks
 
Here is a link to the meter.

http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=HH11_HH12

They are both off the shelf items and I happened to buy them both used around the same time.

I did have to extend the probe to get the thermocouple wire inside the car to my meter.

I bought the double meter and got a probe from work so I can tell my incar temps. :)

You could also use the second spot on the meter for intercooler or intake temps. too. Or another EGT somewhere else.

Westach clamp on probe is nice. Model 712-36DWK or 712-48DWK not sure about the pipe size diameter of the header.

Depends on where you locate it.

I am not sure exactly what you get with the SMC kit since I bought used off the parts section.
 
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