this is why you need to learn to do the work on your own

[TexasT]

I enjoy theads like these that attract several of the gurus with real world experience and the willingness to share it.
I used copper spray on every engine I ever assembled until I did the hg on this v6. Just have to follow what works.
Op , you are getting why I decided to learn to assemble a trans. And why I do my own work. Too many horror stories and just too expensive to pay someone else.

Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk

 

[Toby_Goodmk]

oh I have learned brother. And the peeps that have helped me and have been great. Bison has been there numerous times as well as Brian at GBP when I needed advice IMMEDIATELY over text messaging.

 

[BEATAV8]

I stopped using the copper spray too. No regrets.

 

[Phoneguy]

I have had issues with installing them dry more than once. I now remove the rivets and use copper coat on all layers. Let dry overnight and install. 2 heat cycles and re torque. No more leaks

Bryan

 

[forcefed3.8's]

Copper spray and a retorque after a heat cycle, or after 24hrs is a must. The only set I didnt retorque (the first set I used) blew. Torque to 85lbs with ARP lube. Havent had any problems in 7 years. My current 1000+hp engine has cometics done this way, and hasent had a valve cover off since it was built in 2011.

 

[TurboBuRick]

Copper spray and a retorque after a heat cycle, or after 24hrs is a must. The only set I didnt retorque (the first set I used) blew. Torque to 85lbs with ARP lube. Havent had any problems in 7 years. My current 1000+hp engine has cometics done this way, and hasent had a valve cover off since it was built in 2011.

Just curious, where did you come up with 85lbs from?

 

[Toby_Goodmk]

Well yesterday, as I opened up my cometic gaskets I see where they say to install them dry..lol.. I finished the engine tonight. Yesterday I installed the heads and torqued to 80lb with a matco digital wrench. This morning i tested break away....65lb....hmm... I guess the builder never torqued the hards a period later from initial torque. I finished the torque today and broke them loose, retorqued today to 80. I have run 3 heat cycles and will report later what the break away torque was after a couple heat cycles.

 

[Toby_Goodmk]

three heat cycles and torque is still good. Wrench went to 83lb and I stopped before breakaway

 

[achalmersman]

When you say breakaway are you talking about in the forward direction? You must loosen, and re-torque. Breakaway in the forward direction will be more than breakaway in the reverse direction. If you really want to tell if the bolt moved you have to mark it and a reference point with a sharp pencil point or something. If it lines back up after re-torque then nothing changed as far as crush, etc.

Think of a bolt / nut as an inclined plane. Yes there is static friction when talking about breakaway. But realize that the clamping load is trying to force the nut up the inclined plane hence less force required in the loosening direction and more in the tightening direction. I am not a mechanical engineer but this is kind of how I picture it and the only logical reasoning I can think of.

 

[SloGN]

spoke with the machine shop. Which I want to make people aware. AND, I am not trying to slam any business. However, If I feel I was done wrong....and can help someone else... I will "whistle blow."

Barker performance and Machine, owensville ohio 513-724-3288

He talked with me this morning.
* Brought out the blue print.

1. Heads torqued to 75lb with moly. Claims this is what the ARP spec sheet calls for. WRONG, albeit only 5lb...but the instructions say 80.
2. He uses copper spray on everything. Motors that are full blown 2500 hp running 50lb boost, no issues with copper spray. Yet....cometic says not to use it I guess he needs to do R & D for these MFG
3. 60-65lb did not make my head gasket blow. It was a lean condition, (which could be possible) but the smoking gun is the improper installation process.


So, He left me high and dry again. I wont get too entirely off the topic about how he installed standard main bearings in this build and the oil pressure was shit, changed them to .001...issue solved. But then as well....he blamed it on my oil pump this March. I guess now that I have 20psi hot idle I now have is just a fluke?

I asked for 50$ worth of gaskets....just as a ways of saying...I am not too entirely sure what happened, but I am willing to work with you.....NOPE!

So.... burned???? yes. Learned??? yes.

I needed to vent, thanks for your ears!! lol!!



Turbobitt, I would not hesitate (which I am not) to use cometics again. Even if I had to pay for them. I feel the onus was on improper installation. I feel they do enough research and testing to do well with a mild engine as mine.


Jerryl. Yes I agree. They are forking out 275$ worth of gaskets for free....no issue. That in my personal opinion is listening and working with a customer in need. I do have some pull...yes. Any distributor that can represent their customer would have the same result...IMO. Also, I have never recorded a KR, so we are good there. Pistons, walls, plugs all looked good.

TruboBuRick, I agree 100% with everything you say. If the dumbass uses copper spray sealant, there is the smoking gun! I did run a professional machinists straight edge across all the decks, and surfaces.....I cannot slide a .0015 feeler under at any point. The deck and heads were 50RA surfaced and I'd say from the inspection of the machine work, its clean, neat and done correctly.

My arp studs called for 65 ft lbs with moly lube and 85 ft lbs with 30 wt motor oil......Now this was a few yrs ago when I put my engine together and that's the spec I have used since then on other engines...


so if the builder used moly lube on those studs the torque was correct.....



Do you think you could have hurt that gasket before the intercooled set-up

 

[Toby_Goodmk]

instructions now are 80. I dont think I hurt it, as I take compression readings pretty regularly and all was good during conversion back.

 

[SloGN]

FWI do you trust your torque wrench.......Richard Clark has a machine that test torque wrenches and I have seen some very nice high dollar wrenches be off by 10% or more.........

I too use copper spray on my head gaskets. I installed them dry and the oil the seeps down thru the layers drove me nuts... So I now take the rivets out and spray them with copper coat and then dab some rtv around the oil drain back holes in the Head.


Now you want to talk about how cometic knows best about their gaskets and how to install them.......Ever notice the oil drain back holes don't match the heads or the block worth a damn..... They create a pocket for the oil to sit in and then weep thru the layers in the back of the heads due to the incline of the engine..... surely when they designed these gaskets they must have had a engine to test them for fitment and notice this?

FWIW this occurs on iron and alum heads....

 

[forcefed3.8's]

We are not the only ones using copper spray on the cometics. It is common practice. It is just something that cant be controlled by cometic, so they cant condone it.

 

[BadAssGN]

Toby
Did you check the stud length ?

Very common issue with arp studs requiring extra washers.
Only an issue with the intermediate size on the intake side ends.

 

[TT/Ameasap]

I just got my car running with cometics. Drilled rivets, copper spray each layer and the right stuff around all oil and water orifices in all layers. 85ft lb with molly lube in the correct sequence. Re-torqued after 1 day...got a half turn. Checked again another day and right on 85.
ARP studs on TA aluminum heads.
I have been up to 23psi (around low 10's for power reference) today and I have absolutely no leaks like I did before. Dry as a bone. Never had that before.
Ya, im sold on the copper spray and right stuff so far.

 

[TurboBob]

i wonder if, after the cometics are installed and torqued, if the oil returns could be opened up with a really sharp punch....

b

 

[SloGN]

Bob

Its not a problem of they are not big enough.. They just happen to be located in the wrong place.
That in turn allows the oil to pool then wick between the layers..

If i can i will try and snap a few pics of the problem. I'll be heading over to the Clark's this weekend.


I'm hoping to have the bailey mobile torn down very soon!

 

[2sloUknow]

I purchased the rjc bulletproof head gaskets for my ha before I realized step 10: 10 heat cycles, re torquing after each one. Simple on an ic car but pita on ha. If the same is true of the cometics, does anyone know of a product that is one and done?

 

[Toby_Goodmk]

Update:

Checked head torque on a few studs again today after a dozen or more heat cycles. All seems well, no copper spray and one set of torque sequencing over night. Still tight at 80+. Plus no oil leaks either.

 

[Toby_Goodmk]

30lb boost cycle still tight on the heads, cold engine too.