Stock Appearing TR Class for Bowling Green 08

[UNGN]

I'm gonna see if I can break this down for ya dude.

The rules are you can do ANYTHING as long as you can't see it with an inspection mirror.

You have to have a little imagination.

Then the rules should say that and not say the car must have a "stock unmodified air box", which is what they say.

Imagination isn't the same as breaking actual, written down rules. It's called Cheating.

If I break an actual, written down rule and win, and somebody doesn't break a rule and loses, only in bizarro world would I be declared the winner.

 

[A2000RICH]

Then the rules should say that and not say the car must have a "stock unmodified air box", which is what they say.

Imagination isn't the same as breaking actual, written down rules. It's called Cheating.

If I break an actual, written down rule and win, and somebody doesn't break a rule and loses, only in bizarro world would I be declared the winner.

i really don't know why its so hard to understand this class-------lets say the rules stated "totally stock inside and out" just how practical is this-------you gonna tear the engine down to make sure its got original GM bearings, crank and pistons--------this class says the airbox has to be stock/unmodified-----same with the engine, fuel pressure regulator and everything else-------and since you can't see inside the engine or regulator that means that you can modify the INSIDES all you want--------the rules say that no tools will be used for tech inspection and without tools its pretty hard to see inside stuff------a regulator is easily modified internally to increase performance------i remember years ago that BG Customs used to sell a totally stock appearing regulator with an internal adjustment that was accessed by removing the vacuum line-------that is the spirit of this class---------to see how fast we can go with stock appearing TR's--------

 

[UNGN]

The motor rules don't say that the motor has to be "stock unmodified".

It does say that the airbox has to be "stock unmodified" which means no modifications and not "no modifications you can see".

If you meant to say the airbox CAN have internal modifications, saying that it has to be "stock unmodified" isn't really correct, then.

 

[A2000RICH]

One question for Richard

If you take one stock 87 GN vs one stock 87 GNX and modify them EQUALLY, meaning, if you use a TA49, add it to both, same chip, same exhaust, same tires, everything is equal, apples to apples, every mod or update is the same on each, would the GN be faster... take your knowledge and implememt it for this class only, would the GN be faster in the quarter vs the same equally modded GNX? I like to see Richard betting, he doesn't lose! sure bet!!

funny sh!t, great class after hearing that a roll cage may be required... interesting class... but I will not bet against Richard, I will disagree, but I will not bet! Remember the audio seminar and his betting stories...

When is the open house at TR ranch, Richard?

Then for show cars in concours...
As for concours for turbo regal, there hasn't been a turbo participant since Rodney Sanders with his 00060.0 mile stock GN in 2006. Then in 2005 there were 5 cars in the concours for TR.

2006 GS Nationals
Class JB: GN / T-Type Concours / Restored (up thru 1987)
Gold: Rodney Sanders - # 3490 - 87 GN with 60 miles

2005 GS Nationals
Class JB: GN / T-Type Concours / Restored (up thru 1987)
Gold: Rodney Sanders - # 3490 (GN with 60 miles)
Gold: Paul Castle - # 3306
Gold: Jeff Hanson - # 3613
Gold: Brian Rice - # 1973
Gold: Joe Denninger - # 5392

the answer to this question is not trivial but here goes--------first lets look at what actually made a GNX faster than a GN------ i want to approach this logically----------in no particular order----------the GNX had quite a few differences from a GN but not all of them were "GOfast mods" and to complicate things even further some of the GOfast mods may improve performance on the street but not so much at a dragstrip----------the GNx had an upgraded turbo------this turbo had a lighter impeller for faster spool to help the low end response and a larger housing for more top end power---------while this turbo was great in its day i can say from first hand experience that a TA49 will blow it away and the TA 49 has been around over ten years--------the stuff they have now is even more incredible so if the GN and GNX each had one of the identical new super turbos what does that mean?????--------one of the biggest advantages of the GNX over the GN was the factory setting of the adjustable wastegate--------out of the gate most GNX's would produce several more pounds of boost than a GN that had a fixed value wastegate ---and a few extra pounds of boost are really worth some real horsepower------ what about the "improved" intercooler?????-------without doing a side by side comparison few folks can tell one from the other-------same size tanks, same size inlet and outlet, identical air path with only a few more fins to dissipate heat from the air tubes--------if its worth a jillionth of a second i would be surprised---------and what about the chip???-------the GN was programmed so that it would at least run acceptable without damage with regular gas, the GNX was intended for Premium ONLY-----this demanded a more conservative program especially regarding boost and timing for the GN---------read the manuals if you don't believe it----------that said it is without question that the best programmers today know much more about how to extract maximum performance from these cars than GM or ASC knew 20 years ago-------especially considering they don't have to honor a warranty-----------the transmission?????-------the GNX had a stronger regulator pressure spring to allow higher pressure to the clutches and a line bias valve from the 700 to improve shift timing, a stronger 3/4 accumulator spring as well as a weaker 2ond servo return spring to allow crisper 1/2-3/4 shift--------probably not worth much but i think it is safe to assume that we are far ahead of these primitive mods with some of todays state of the art 200R4's--------the GNX's all had aluminum bumper supports and alum rear drums-------this is worth over 50 lbs and not all GN's had this advantage while most T's did----------if equipped equally for comparison sake we would have to make sure that both cars were the same----------all GNX's had posi's-------not all GN's did------but in this comparison they are the same---------what about the suspension--------on a positive side it can do wonders to improve traction and handling on the street with street tires but i can say from experience that on a good track with sticky tires that it offers little or no advantage-------when the extra 72 pounds is considered it certainly offers little or no advantage on the strip and may be a liability------------a GNX came with light aluminum wheels and 255/16 tires that were good for their time-------the GN came with totally crummy 215/15 tires on HEAVY steel wheels-------in this comparison we are going to equip them with identical wheels/tires---------there you have it-------99% of the reason GNX's were faster than GN's were turbo, chip, tires and weight and if these 4 factors are equal there is virtually no performance difference in the two---------- at least not at a dragstrip--------the open house is slated for mid oct and its gonna be really special-----keep it open...................RC

 

[NCTURBOS]

Richard... Sending you a PM...

K.

 

[usetaboost]

Not trying to start another fire, just have ???s

I know this thread is old and the game is over for the year, but this sounds like something fun to get into. Maybe some lifetime I will get my car finished and be able to make it to one of these events. A few questions though. Does it HAVE to be a 109 block or can it be any 3.8 block? Don't see what the big deal would be there. 2nd. Maf has to be stock right? WHere do we get good stock mafs from???? I thought gm didn't make them anymore?? I understand the "stock unmodified" rear arm thing. But it states that the bushings have to be black. So we can run poly bushings right? Which should also be the same for the body bushings right? They're black, they look stock

The inlet pipe can be blocked off the turbo. OK, well does that mean the stock pipe and pass breather must still be present and hanging out? I ask this because if we are allowed a push in breather for the pass valve cover why not one for the driver's side? 20 year old fillter/breather cap can't be in too good of shape along with the seal on the fill tube. I still have a majority of stock parts so I have a chance at this if I choose. Again, not trying to start anything, just curious. And I'm also guessing the stock air box can be modified all you want as long as it isn't shown by looking at it by mirror?

One other thing is the wheel option-Don't get how that can fly??? We can't replace them failure prone, gernade a motor at will, POS mafs with newer style lt1. But we can put on aftermarket wheels? weird. Maybe to make that a little more true we could put a limit on it-15x7 and 16x8??

 

[RUQWKNF]

RU thinks out loud......

Hmmmmmm..........
and more

I can see all kinds of areas that one could dabble in.
I'd love to see a concours car run 10's myself, that would be impressive.

Why not take a low mileage mint WE-4 and spray the ever livin stink out of it with a well hidden kit? Do your fuel stuff of course with a 237 regulator and a good N2O chip. Talk about grenade with the pin pulled. But that might be fun for a little bit.
I can remember back in the day, guys back home taking bone stock GNs and running spray to get into the 11's on slicks, so it's possible.
Just thinking out loud.

Patrick

 

[turbo39151]

I am curious about this class.

I have read all the posts and it specifically states in the rules that NO POWER ADDERS are allowed. But then I read other stuff that states that if you can hide it, you can use it.

So if I build a 9 second engine,tone it down and cover it up with stock stuff, I can qualify as stock appearing?

Seems like it would be better to just go completely stock all around. Stock turbo, stock rims (with and much tire as you can fit) or -gasp- stock sized tires, stock everything, injectors and chip as well. Then the class would be pretty much even and the best would win.

Just some ideas...

 

[Slow91z]

I'd say it's a little late to make changes that big to a class that people have already built cars for.

 

[Grumpy]

I can remember back in the day, guys back home taking bone stock GNs and running spray to get into the 11's on slicks, so it's possible.
Just thinking out loud.

Patrick

11 are easy with a stock car with dots .. talk about the good ol days Car will handle it for a long time to.. wasn't that big of a "kit" (maybe 75hp) .. damm that was fun :biggrin:

 

[Turbo6Smackdown]

I personally love this class. Though, in my mind, this is still a 'bigger pocketbook wins' class. So I could build a bored and stroked ta performance aluminum 4.1, anodize it brown, then carefully paint it to the exact same colour an aged stock 109 looks after 20 years, and it's ok?

I say stock displacement out of a stock 109 block should be part of the rules. Still though, I'd love to have a go at this. I've always been a fan of the stock appearances. I still have all my original parts, and I'd love to bolt some of them back on to go down there. I don't have much done to my car. And I'm a MASTER at hidin ****. I know ALL the tricks to moddin' the factory parts too.

If I have the money after this next deployment. (I'll be home in about 9 months) I will surely come down and race.

 

[turbo39151]

Can someone clarify the following:


"Full size OEM aluminum or steel bumper reinforcements, use of aluminum bumper reinforcements does not have to match VIN tag in trunk.

Bumper shocks must be original steel/unmodified."

I think what they're saying is that the bumper support is the inside section that the chrome or black steel bumper sits on. And the "bumper shocks" are what they attach too? I think I'm correct but just wanted to make sure. (Essentially, they are not allowing the lighter aluminum ones that are always for sale on this board?) OR am I confused?

 

[Thumper]

You are thinking correctly, you must have the stock shock absorber type struts that the aluminum inserts attach to , then the bumper bolts to the alum insert.

Thanks
Bill