SO, what is the next big thing?

[Mike T]

As for the latest technology a transplanted 2014 twin turbo Caddy motor may be in the future for some. These things are going to have a ton of potential 6 bolt mains & 4 valves per cylinder. IMO this would be more in line with the original Buick platform than an ls swap.

 

[rag231]

I have said it many times before, I am looking into increasing displacement. I like the use of a 3.75 stroke crank that has been in existence for 25+ years. There has to be something else in the cylinder head dept. There have only been about 7 or so different heads since the beginning production and stage. Maybe a Canted valve design or an OHV type. ( Take the cam out of the block ) Let every member make a contribution in the name of Research and Development towards a TA Performance or Champion or any particpating vendor towards the R and D of much wanted ( needed) parts. TA can possibly make the raised cam block or change the head design( not that they need to either head). Champion can continue the Iron stage 2 block with a few twists or improvements. This R and D money could be used to approach big time companies like Brodix , Moroso ( who used to make a lot Buick parts - oil pans, oil pumps, vavle covers, etc...) or any of the new start up companies that's supporting the LS market. There are many companies out there looking for work to keep their employees busy, no matter how large or small the orders. Mike Licht you would know better than us the ins and outs of Buick V6 products( R and D, marketing , sales) I sure you've had products that you thought were the next big thing and wondered why it wasn't flying off the shelf. Like everyone has noticed , it is all based off of the races we that go to every year. The racers create the need to have products that have to be on the cutting edge of performance, reliability and durability. Bad news travels at the speed of light. Pick any product that had negative feedback. Most of the negative feedback stemmed from incorrect installs or something else other that the actual failure of the part. Call Mike at TA and tell him that all members of turbobuick.com each donated $100 bucks a piece toward R and D of any new product to help keep retail costs down and to speed up the process a little and watch what happens. A portion of the donation could be returned, ( or witten off on taxes), if that person purchases the product. I would be willing to put up a $100 toward block or cylinder head experiments. Name the companies willing to take on the projects. Sorry for jumping around. Ron

 

[DCVING 6]

I think the point of the thread is to help people who want to do it right, not help the guys who are destroying a piece of automotive history.

I get what you are saying. I am just saying if I am a vendor looking to market the next big thing, I'm looking at what the masses are talking about. Not a whole lot of people are wanting to put the work in to learn how different cams do different things. People just want to hear this is the latest and greatest and you have to have it. Lots of people on here wanting to do a turbo LS swap? What for when their car only runs 11's as is.

 

[psycho6cyl]

I would like to see the vendors here start building "Test Cars." Show me that a billet turbo made more power than the cast unit.
I would like for the prices of the parts to go down a bit. $1100 for headers!!
I would like for the fitment issues to be addressed before you offer something to the community. $600 Headers or Intercoolers that need to be modded to fit.
I would not swap my V6 to a V8 but If I pick up a MC SS and a LS motor....Vendors for TR's won't hear from me for quite a while.

Point is, if you make this fragile cars as expensive as Mopars to go fast with any reliability...they will die off.

I think you answered your own question. The headers are 1100 because they do fit. Other headers are 600 because the time and effort wasnt put into them. To add to all this we are a veey small market and ppl need to get to get paid. They cant mass produce headers like the chevelle ford guys bc we just dont have the mass for it. One of the reason why we get into these cars is bc they are not your typical cookie cutter muscle car. And if you think about it our stock headers support 10 sec cars. I dont know any chevelle guys doin that
I

 

[OvaBoost]

Call Mike at TA and tell him that all members of turbobuick.com each donated $100 bucks a piece toward R and D of any new product to help keep retail costs down and to speed up the process a little and watch what happens. A portion of the donation could be returned, ( or witten off on taxes), if that person purchases the product. I would be willing to put up a $100 toward block or cylinder head experiments. Name the companies willing to take on the projects. Sorry for jumping around. Ron

They could use Kickstarter.com to raise some funds.

 

[Mike Licht]

Harold Brookshire, he had Ultradyne cams and is a very smart guy. I have had the pleasure of speaking to him a few times in a sit down where he explained a few things to me. He was a strong proponent of fast lobes. Bullet cams come from his designs they bought off Ultradyne when it went under, he is now with Lunati. Your on the right track with the exhaust I have some data we have been putting together for different turbine wheels and head combos we are tweaking the cams to fit and seeing nice gains. I have not really made a big deal about this but it has been going on for a while.I am pretty excited about the solid roller deal too.

 

[Mike Licht]

I would like to see the vendors here start building "Test Cars." Show me that a billet turbo made more power than the cast unit.
Point is, if you make this fragile cars as expensive as Mopars to go fast with any reliability...they will die off.

We just did! see the 4.1 thread and there is more coming like suspension and E85 conversion. We will track test he car and plan on hitting some Buick events

 

[rag231]

mike, off subject but what happened to the 109 stage 2 headed project. I remember the good ol days when there were a few Buick performance shops that had "test" cars. Conley's, ANS, ATR , BG Customs, ESP, and many many others. I still think that there is still a very high demand for the products. The cost of the new products that come out are very reasonable. There are still a lot of technological advances in cams, turbos, and converters. It is truly amazing just how much power the 109 can handle.

 

[Nick Micale]

I applaud Mike for his concern about the future of our turbo Buick cars, and asking how and what we can do to keep them from fading into oblivion.

My life and work has revolved around T-R's for more years than I care to mention, and I will be involved with them as long as I am able.

From what we have done in recent years with these cars has changed dramatically from the "glory days" of Buick racing and events, and this is evident from seeing the lack of participation of track cars.

It is not the lack of HP or technology of the turbo V-6 engine, or even the cost, it is the owners lack of interest and lack of passion for the T-R's. There are a few like myself that will compete with a T-R race car, but relatively few other will devote the time and $$$ with a 50 year old Buick V-6?

We have 1500 HP turbo V-6 that are currently available, but who wants them?

I the past 6 months we have, or are building, five TA alum engines, eight 4.1L production engines and four 3.8 builds, and none of them are for a race car? All are for street/strip or just cruising applications, one may approach the 900 HP level.

So clearly, it is not the lack of affordable HP from the Buick V-6, or parts to support it, there just are not enough people interested in pushing the performance envelope, and my thinking they just want to enjoy what is easily and affordably available.

With 600 HP at the rear wheels, this car is an awesome street performer if traction is there to handle it.

As far as cams and other engine parts, we have for years used our specific grinds and other parts to obtain max HP on various class cars which have set many records, but where are the racers now doing that?

With all the active board members, how many have even taken their car to the track, much less have been in active competition? Sorry, that interest is just not there any longer.

Of the many turbo Buick owners I communicate with every day from around the country, and Canada, it is very seldom that max performance is discussed, what they want is reliability at their performance level on the street.

There are still many passionate turbo Buick owners, but their goal is not all HP, but a fun performance car that has "mystique" where ever they go, and that satisfies their ego!

 

[bison]

Earl, I think what we are finally zeroing in on is that in a maxed out scenario cam timing need to be different for iron and aluminum heads. Exhaust cam opening has to come at a different time with different turbine wheels and some of the new turbine wheels allow us to open the exhaust valve much earlier. The other thing I have recently found is that big wastegates really help which never made sense before but I am starting to understand more clearly. I will be putting a 66MM on the header of my new car even though a 44 will control the boost just fine.

This is true. It takes a lot less energy to keep the turbine going once its spooled and it can be used as a tool to reduce backrepssure and allow the cam profile to be altered. No matter what the ex valve open/close is critical to getting the most out of it.

 

[cruzn57]

I think you have it spot on Nick!
the lack of interest by alot of long timers, is apparent!
I just spoke to a turbo buick friend, who hasn't touched his 9 sec buick in a long time,
he said the interest just isn't there anymore.
another friend with a 9 sec turbo buick has his for sale, and has no interest in racing any more.
that and the lack of race tracks, makes for wasted money.
I'll admit, my interest has declined, ( selling my GNX)
I will always keep one turbo buick in the garage , but the desire for multiple turbo buicks has passed.
the next big thing? I dunno, but I'll continue to watch and see .........

 

[Howling Mad]

We just did! see the 4.1 thread and there is more coming like suspension and E85 conversion. We will track test he car and plan on hitting some Buick events

If you start selling an E85 conversion kit I'd be on it like white on rice.

 

[rag231]

I think shortblock prices are a little high. Not saying that's it's not worth it just a little high. Maching and assembly costs. Cylinder head prices have remained very consistent over the years, even with the introduction of TA's heads. Porting adds different price levels. ( mild to wild) Roller cam kits have remained the roughly the same. A new torque converter is also about the same as if you were price checking a catalog back in 2000. There was a a ray of sunlight on the twin turbo stock block projects by Bigwood and ESP. I would stil like a set of those headers that were made. Then again I would need the shortblock to support the power. Machining and assembly costs. Some one needs to write a book called "How to make a 109 survive an 8 second pass."

 

[DCVING 6]

I think one other thing too is the economy still sucks for many. A lot of people don't have the disposable $$$ to be racing a car, looking for max performance.

 

[TurboTdr3.8]

There are still many passionate turbo Buick owners, but their goal is not all HP, but a fun performance car that has "mystique" where ever they go, and that satisfies their ego!

I agree Nick most people want something to satisfies them and have fun and not wrench on them all the time from going all balls and staying out of their pocketbook as much as possible .

 

[Howling Mad]

Nick, I definitely understand what your saying. There is a few cars in Greenville that have bottom ends built to handle 9s including mine but I nor any one esle around will every push them that hard and the biggest thing is reliable and street ability. I would like to think that if I had the money I would have built an evil stage 2 car with a cage, tubbed, and a wheelie bar. But in reality it would be something that I just wouldn't enjoy as much. At the end of the day a drag car is just that, a drag car. Not saying that I wouldn't enjoy more power out of my combo. If it was as simple as a cam change to have better spool more power and the same or better driveablity I wouldn't think twice about it.

 

[rag231]

I want to do E85 but cant find it in my area and I dont want to rely on the drum. I think Alky and E 85 would have to be added to the great performance advancements list. Thanks to those innovators as well.

 

[Mike Licht]

mike, off subject but what happened to the 109 stage 2 headed project. I remember the good ol days when there were a few Buick performance shops that had "test" cars. Conley's, ANS, ATR , BG Customs, ESP, and many many others. I still think that there is still a very high demand for the products. The cost of the new products that come out are very reasonable. There are still a lot of technological advances in cams, turbos, and converters. It is truly amazing just how much power the 109 can handle.

We raced a car for years and had a 10 sec car when most were in the 12's and very few were in the 9's. The Stage 2 head 109 motor that was going into Travis Beckendorff's old Spooky 1 car that I also bought at the time ended up getting sold to Shane, he just had to have it. I am sorry I let it go I never should have but he caught me on the right day. I actually PMed him a few days ago asking about that motor it is sitting all put together. I was thinking it would be fun in my new car and I could prove my point about how good that setup could be. The key was the small valve iron stage 2 heads that fit the block. Who knows, I may build another one, just for fun.

 

[Mike Licht]

I applaud Mike for his concern about the future of our turbo Buick cars, and asking how and what we can do to keep them from fading into oblivion.

My life and work has revolved around T-R's for more years than I care to mention, and I will be involved with them as long as I am able.

From what we have done in recent years with these cars has changed dramatically from the "glory days" of Buick racing and events, and this is evident from seeing the lack of participation of track cars.

It is not the lack of HP or technology of the turbo V-6 engine, or even the cost, it is the owners lack of interest and lack of passion for the T-R's. There are a few like myself that will compete with a T-R race car, but relatively few other will devote the time and $$$ with a 50 year old Buick V-6?

We have 1500 HP turbo V-6 that are currently available, but who wants them?

I the past 6 months we have, or are building, five TA alum engines, eight 4.1L production engines and four 3.8 builds, and none of them are for a race car? All are for street/strip or just cruising applications, one may approach the 900 HP level.

So clearly, it is not the lack of affordable HP from the Buick V-6, or parts to support it, there just are not enough people interested in pushing the performance envelope, and my thinking they just want to enjoy what is easily and affordably available.

With 600 HP at the rear wheels, this car is an awesome street performer if traction is there to handle it.

As far as cams and other engine parts, we have for years used our specific grinds and other parts to obtain max HP on various class cars which have set many records, but where are the racers now doing that?

With all the active board members, how many have even taken their car to the track, much less have been in active competition? Sorry, that interest is just not there any longer.

Of the many turbo Buick owners I communicate with every day from around the country, and Canada, it is very seldom that max performance is discussed, what they want is reliability at their performance level on the street.

There are still many passionate turbo Buick owners, but their goal is not all HP, but a fun performance car that has "mystique" where ever they go, and that satisfies their ego!

There is not many races anymore and for me I am not interested in changing my car to fit class rules. I would run the THS class but I have a 400 trans and a new PTC converter. I am not going to put a 200 back in the car and the crazy cost for a trans that is weaker. My car is a development tool I can have fun with. If I want to test something I can. If I want to go to cruise night or grudge night at the track I can. The guys that call me all want to go in the 10's or 9's reliably. Todays technology can be applied to help them. New combos that are more streetable and powerful can bring some people back out. It is also nice to here about what other people are thinking, both vendors and member, sometimes we have too many secrets, this board always has been about info sharing and learning. That is why I started the board in the first place

 

[JayC]

We raced a car for years and had a 10 sec car when most were in the 12's and very few were in the 9's. The Stage 2 head 109 motor that was going into Travis Beckendorff's old Spooky 1 car that I also bought at the time ended up getting sold to Shane, he just had to have it. I am sorry I let it go I never should have but he caught me on the right day. I actually PMed him a few days ago asking about that motor it is sitting all put together. I was thinking it would be fun in my new car and I could prove my point about how good that setup could be. The key was the small valve iron stage 2 heads that fit the block. Who knows, I may build another one, just for fun.

Theres several motors just sitting there unfortunately. Nelson's Hernandez's motor that went 8.01 in a 3000# car has been laying on the floor for 4 years+.

Im trying to get him to get the old Gallina car project underway.. maybe next year.