Roller cam/valve guide seals issue (pics)

[Abomb]

I have had an annoying oil burning issue that I have chased down to what looks like a few of the inner springs on my roller cam breaking and chewing up the valve guide seals. I have taken off the passenger side valve cover only so far and here is what I found.

In this pic you can see the worn valve guide seal and one of the broken inner springs. Both these seals were firmly on the bottom where they belong. Only one was chewed up. I didn't notice the inner springs were broke until I removed them.

In this pic you can see the other inner springs look good except for the first one the spring is broke and the seal is way up on the valve.

I'm not real sure where to go with this, I am still looking for my cam spec sheet but if I remember right it was an ATR 215/210 roller from Cottons. Motor was assembled with this cam like 8 years ago. The car sat for a long time and only a few thousand mile are on it so far.

I will obviously need to get some new springs and seals but I don't really know what to get for either. The heads are old Champion irons bought in the late 90's. Any thoughts?

 

[disco stu]

Had the same problem with springs supplied with my ATR roller. Got some K Motions from Tom at Champion and problem solved. Just some cheap quality springs. Might as well get the Beehives now though. Better spring, and no dampener (part that broke) needed. Tom will hook you up.

 

[Boost231]

good info. just get beehives and be done with it

 

[Abomb]

Thanks guys I called Tom at Champion he is real helpful and I am getting new stuff on the way.

 

[mikestertwo]

Had the same problem with springs supplied with my ATR roller. Got some K Motions from Tom at Champion and problem solved. Just some cheap quality springs. Might as well get the Beehives now though. Better spring, and no dampener (part that broke) needed. Tom will hook you up.

I had the same problem with the ATR roller springs.

 

[SPOOLN]

I had a dampener break on a chevy i had, i don't us them on the buicks..

 

[Abomb]

Update

Well crap I got all my springs replaced with the beehives and replaced all the damaged seals and the car still smokes badly when at hot idle. I am thinking the guides are shot? I am going to have a local member here (Jeff Strube) check it out a little better but talking over the phone that's what were thinking. If I have to pull the heads I'm just going to pull the whole motor and do it on the stand. This really frustrates me.

 

[forcedfedv6]

my buddy had the same problems with those springs the dampner kept breaking over and over again, not on 1 but on 3 different valves he went to behive springs and then the lock broke on 1 of them, the behives come with new locks and retainers, the valve dropped and it hit the top of the piston and bend a valve, now the whole motor is coming out, just make sure that the retainer and locks they sell with the springs a are made the USA and not Freaking china..

 

[disco stu]

Possible guide seals. But also could be the turbo. Once the tubo oil seals go bad they smoke like a studebaker. Check your intercooler/pipes and for play in the shaft. Mine smoked like crazy at idle but went away when driving.

 

[Abomb]

Thanks for responding guys.

Force Fed the springs and retainers were in Comp Cams packaging, the locks were in a ziplock so I don't know where they came from. But I trust them it all came from Champion.

Disco Stu, I really don't have a clue why it's still smoking. I am just guessing at the valve guides. I am afraid to pull the heads and have them be ok. That would be alot of work for nothing.

I don't have any oil in my int cooler pipes. There is some minor shaft play but if I remember a long time ago when I put the turbo on it seemed like it had a little play in it when brand new. It is a cpt-65 I think I recall you ran one of these way back in the day as well.

When I pull the downpipe and looked in the turbo it seems dry in there.

My oil pressure is pretty high in this car 28-30 psi at hot idle with the car in drive. It pegs my gauge at 80 at cold start up. 5w30 oil. I was wondering if the high oil pressure killed a seal in the turbo. A while back I put a restrictor to reduce some of the oil to the turbo, thinking maybe it was pushing oil past a good seal but no dice. Also I think the last builder said it was a high pressure/high volume pump, but I can't really remember.

What I don't understand is if its the guides why wouldn't it smoke on start up? It only smokes when fully warm and at idle like in a drive through or at a light. Any more input would be greatly appreciated.

 

[RmvBfrFlght]

Thanks for responding guys.
...
What I don't understand is if its the guides why wouldn't it smoke on start up? It only smokes when fully warm and at idle like in a drive through or at a light. Any more input would be greatly appreciated.

It sounds like a PCV issue. At idle and low speeds the intake manifold vacuum fluctuates which can cause the PCV valve to act like a pump. See how much oil is in the PCV line. Can also throw together a temporary (IE: inexpensive) oil/vapor separator and try that.

RemoveBeforeFlight

 

[forcedfedv6]

Thanks for responding guys.

Force Fed the springs and retainers were in Comp Cams packaging, the locks were in a ziplock so I don't know where they came from. But I trust them it all came from Champion.

.

I am talking about the new behive springs locks and retainers.

 

[Alky V6]

What intake gasket setup are you running?

 

[bison]

If you rev under 6k the easiest thing to do is buy a set of comp 941's and throw them in there. Cheap and faster than conical springs. Or spend the extra $ and go for the beehives/retainers. Be sure to equalize the installed height on the springs.

 

[pitoturbo]

beehive springs no ploblems so far

 

[Abomb]

Remove Before Flight I will block off the PCV tomorrow and see if it makes a difference. I'll update tomorrow night.

Force Fed I looked at the receipt and the part number for the valve locks is CRA99095. I did a search they are Crane Cam steel locks. I guess these are OK. No problems so far.

DonWG I am not sure what intake gasket is on it. This motor was built like 8 years ago and I don't have all the specifics unfortunately. I looked at the invoice and he just charged it as valley pan gasket. If I block off the PCV and it stops smoking it is probably the wrong intake gasket then, correct?

Bison I already installed the beehive springs last weekend. You said to be sure to equalize the installed height on the springs. This is probably bad but I just measured one, it was good so I put them all in and didn't check the rest. Maybe I'm a fathead but I didn't know to equalize them all perfectly, i guess you would do that with shims right? I am not going to be revving over 6k if it matters.

Dang Pitoturbo that looks nice. I just got the stock rockers and shaft on mine lol.

 

[Alky V6]

If it's the OEM style gasket with the integral valley pan, your good. If it's the high performance Felpros with no valley pan, then you must fabricate a baffle on the underside of the intake so that oil doesn't get sucked up into the PCV system. Been there, done that. Car acted like bad valve guide seals and rings. Smoked a lot. Went away after fabbing up an oil baffle. We caught it by removing the vacuum block on top of the throttle body and found a bunch of oil in it.

 

[KWIKR 1]

If it's the OEM style gasket with the integral valley pan, your good. If it's the high performance Felpros with no valley pan, then you must fabricate a baffle on the underside of the intake so that oil doesn't get sucked up into the PCV system. Been there, done that. Car acted like bad valve guide seals and rings. Smoked a lot. Went away after fabbing up an oil baffle. We caught it by removing the vacuum block on top of the throttle body and found a bunch of oil in it.

or you can get one of these from AMP for $30 .

 

[GARY HARVEY]

You have a leak tester?

 

[Mad_Trbo]

Leak Down

I kind of like Gary's suggestion with the leak down tester.

Instead of hunting and pecking. You need to eliminate all possible issues. You could be experiencing oil consumption due to the fact that the rings are worn. Although you state the engine has few miles, it is still possible.

I am curious to know if you have had this issue since the rebuild years ago?

Anyway, leak the motor and report back the findings.

Additionally if you still had the heads off the car I would disassemble the valve train and see if the valve guides are worn. This may also lead to your problem. Slide the valve up and down in the guide and see if there is any slight wobbling. The valve should locate itself in the guide and move without resistance but it should not have any play from side to side. If it does you have a worn guide.