The fastest Gen III SBC LSx car (Ronnie Duke's Procharged 3200-3400lbs TA that has run 7.94 @176mph) is using an aluminum block (C5-R) and another fast LSx guy (Harlan) has run 8.20 @170mph (at 3400lbs) w/ a stock cube LS6 (aluminum) twin turbo motor.... Also W2W built a 403ci (iron truck block) single turbo LS1 motor for two guys in Ohio (Steve Turley and Mike Brown) and these guys have also been 8.21 @170mph with a 3400lb Formula..... So where is the difference in HP??
Recasted Stage 2 blocks Interest
- Thread starter geno
- Start date
The fastest Gen III SBC LSx car (Ronnie Duke's Procharged 3200-3400lbs TA that has run 7.94 @176mph) is using an aluminum block (C5-R) and another fast LSx guy (Harlan) has run 8.20 @170mph (at 3400lbs) w/ a stock cube LS6 (aluminum) twin turbo motor.... Also W2W built a 403ci (iron truck block) single turbo LS1 motor for two guys in Ohio (Steve Turley and Mike Brown) and these guys have also been 8.21 @170mph with a 3400lb Formula..... So where is the difference in HP??
Won't know the difference unless they have had the same combo with iron and AL and noted the difference there. Nobody is saying you can't make power with AL, just there may be a loss and some other "unknowns". I have my doubts, and also hopes. I don't see why anybody "wants" the TA block to fail, I sure don't.
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2001
Again, in all of the cars you listed above WIEGHT is a significant factor. While all of those engines are engineering marvels they also have unlimited budgets for R&D that most of us, (or ALL of us) could only dream about. What they don't tell you is how many races do they acutally get out of the block before they are replaced? My engine builder says 1 good season for an alum Bowtie block before it is scrap. The better built rodecks and donovans will see 3 or 4. He has a 1 or 2 of them lying around his shop at any given time. Granted roundy round stuff is harder on engines than drag racing but they will fatigue none the less and they typically aren't making >1000HP
Lets not also forget the engine design and harmonics of an even fire Buick V6. Not exactly a smooth engine to begin with,
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2001
I never said it was a poor design or labeled them as bad. I'm simply waiting to see like everyone else.
IF there is a loss in HP I seriously doubt it would be signifcant enough to worry about......
FWIW, GM's new Global V6 which is an aluminum block motor has already made right around 1800hp at the flywheel in sport compact racing.... Matt Hartford's Pro RWD (minimum weight is 2350lbs) Cavalier has a twin turbo/methanol 3.5L Global V6 motor (stock block, stock crank, stock 4V casting heads) and they have run 6.59 @211mph.... I guess GM thinks aluminum works pretty good??
FWIW, GM's new Global V6 which is an aluminum block motor has already made right around 1800hp at the flywheel in sport compact racing.... Matt Hartford's Pro RWD (minimum weight is 2350lbs) Cavalier has a twin turbo/methanol 3.5L Global V6 motor (stock block, stock crank, stock 4V casting heads) and they have run 6.59 @211mph.... I guess GM thinks aluminum works pretty good??
Weight is second to endurance, they all have to be reliable, and make good HP at the end of the race.
Marvels are usually the result of proper design. The Millers, Can-Am, Porche engines are all from the days of slide rule calculations.
Other then the McClarens, and few of the high rent teams used 3 engines for a full season (after the second season), the Millers were rebuilt indefinetly, it was the changing of the rules (min MPG)that made them obsolete. The Porches were bullet proof. Changing plugs in a 917 meant removing the engine and spending ~$700 a piece for spark plugs. The plugs were designed to be an almost no maintance item.
You have to finish to win, that's the first rule in racing, IMO.
Not to mention that in some really high applications, you want the block to have a certain amount of *flex* to it. Run too tight of clearnaces with a really stiff block, and watch what happens.
Harmonics, IMO, is often used as an excuse, rather then a reason. If a given engine is say 6 cylinders, then the harmonics are a given. In which case then the design of the components need to be in accordance with that.
A well designed iron block, is better then a poorly designed AL one. And by the same token a well designed AL block is better then a poorly designed iron one. Given two well designed engines, then it's about balancing, weight, cost, repairablility, replacement, etc..
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2001
And stock engine turbo regals have run 10's and alum KB Hemis run mid 4's.
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2001
Good point and hopefully TA designed a better wheel. Hopefully I never hurt mine and never have to worry about replacing it.
In comparing apples to apples though, and wieght not being an issue, I would take the iron block.
It's been fun but I have to run, hitting the slopes for the last time this year. Then it is full on thrash to get ready for race season
I hope to have my engine on the dyno next weekend.- Joined
- May 27, 2001
Originally posted by geno
Im pretty sure the guy who wanted me to ask was part of the evolution of the Buick V6. He has all contacts to make this happen if there was enough intrest.He figures it would take around 200 blocks to make his money back
This would be great for the buick community but trying to get $800,000 out of us is not going to happen. How many stage 2 cars are running or being built? I am sure it is far less than 100.
Let's just say it is 100, will each of these people buy $8000 worth of Buick Blocks?
I do not see this being a great business decision.
Since someone has already put the money into this "TA" unless this product turns out to be junk we should support them.
If that does not work there is the new production corporate v-6 that has already made over 200HP than the stage 2 stuff.
If you are not afraid of blasphemy there are dart sbc blocks that are about $2000 and have taken 2500HP.
BobbyBuick
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
I think if the price point could be around 3K in lieu of 4K the responce would be very differant.I know who this is as he is very capable of making this happen.
I would be willing to bet that TA could cast a block in iron for a additional cost if he had to make the decision to put this other block project to a end if need be. Why couldn't he just pour iron in the molds instead of AL? I know it would be a heavy SOB.
The shrinkage rates are too different (from what I recall). When you consider the machining is all referenced from one end, by the time you get to the other just a 1% difference means at the end of the day, you might have alot of scrap.
I worked at a shop where we cast our own heads, and even the simpliest of changes at times, took redoing the patterns. And patterns at that time were just rediculously expensive.
I have to agree with you John that getting this to make money would be unrealistic. I sure didnt start this thread to ruffle any feathers
He just wanted some feedback to read more than anything.Im still waiting to read about big hp numbers a TA block takes and lives I guess this summer will we see when there is more of them on the road.I wish Kenny D would push one to its limitI wonder if these stage 2 blocks couldn't be cast in Mexico at some of the GM factories. I know at one time there were SBC blocks cast in mexico. At least that way it could be more cost effective to produce. I know there are more then 200 TRs running around that would like to have these sort of blocks.
Originally posted by chevyII
Ditto on the Iron VS alum. And you need to pay close attention to the sleeves and alot of custom parts for the TA. 3800+ 1500 in machining plus the custom pickup/engine mounts. 4000 sounds better and better,just make the cylinders .250 thick and I think you will eliminate the cracking. I personally have just built an extremely high dollar car set up for a stage engine. In the future I want to build a nasty engine and It looks like the blocks are going extinct.
Kenny Duttweiler decked, bored, line honed, and installed cam bearings on my TA block and the cost was $385.
Jeff
