Recasted Stage 2 blocks Interest

[geno]

Recasting Off Center Stage 2 Blocks ?

I recieved a phone call from a friend asking if i could get a feel for how many people would be interested in new off center stage 2 blocks in cast iron. These blocks would be around $4000 dollars and fully machined ready to finish hone the bores. They would be off center or on center with cross bolted main caps.It would be the same as buying a Buick Motor Sport block when they were still offerd from Buick.This would not be a new design, but a proven tough block..This is a guy who has the money,time and the drawing to reproduce an exact reproduction.He has a unbelievable Buick V6 background and has the $150,000.00 to tool up for this This is for REAL and he wants to see what response this will get

 

[MSDGN]

Are the off center blocks the ones you can bolt all the stock stuff on such as timing cover...intake...etc

 

[Intercooler]

It would be great if you can bolt 14 bolt GN-1's and the factory accs. on.

 

[Drac0nic]

yeah, off center is for production style stuff.

 

[HighPSI]

I received a similar phone call. I hope it works out.

 

[chazmat2316]

I'd Take one, but four grand is a little steep?

 

[turbobuick]

Originally posted by chazmat2316
I'd Take one, but four grand is a little steep?

Ditto

 

[Big Stu]

You guys with stage motors know how much it costs to have a block machined.... if these have the majority of the machine work done, I don't think 4k is that bad. Go have a ta motor built and see what that costs.

 

[SPOOLN]

thats a great idea, i would like to see it happen. 4000.00 is a bit steep though.

 

[turbodave231]

Great idea, Too bad TA didn't do this before the aluminum block project.

The price is a little steep, but I'd consider a new block over used up race car salvage blocks.

Do you need old S2 blocks to make patterns? I have a cracked 4.1 S2 offcenter block I'd donate.

Dave

 

[chevyII]

Id have some interest in a 4.1 oncenter IF the cylinder walls were built .250 thick instead of the factory 3/16. That would eliminate the cylinder walls from cracking.

 

[Nick Micale]

Originally posted by turbodave231
Great idea, Too bad TA didn't do this before the aluminum block project. ..........Dave

The TA project started out as an iron block. It was changed to alum because of many advantages over the iron block.

The design of the TA block followed the original Stage II design with lots of improvements. The designer used the original Buick blueprints, and even corrected mistakes in them.

 

[geno]

Im pretty sure the guy who wanted me to ask was part of the evolution of the Buick V6. He has all contacts to make this happen if there was enough intrest.He figures it would take around 200 blocks to make his money back

 

[turbobuick]

Originally posted by Nick Micale
The TA project started out as an iron block. It was changed to alum because of many advantages over the iron block.

What advantage does alum have over an iron block? An all alum engine will make less HP, distort easier, and wear out faster than an iron block. The only advantage is it is lighter and easier to repair. The extra 40#'s saved is not worth giving up as much as 20% in HP, especally in a car that is heavy to begin with. It's not an outlaw sprint car where 40# means all the difference in the world.

I'm not knocking the TA block project and commend Mike on taking on the project. I'm also waiting patiently on the sidelines, like most to, see how it works out. I could be wrong, but rom the perspective of someone who has, or is building, a high HP Buick V6 I personally would want an iron block.

 

[S2V6RACER]

Originally posted by turbobuick
What advantage does alum have over an iron block? An all alum engine will make less HP, distort easier, and wear out faster than an iron block. The only advantage is it is lighter and easier to repair. The extra 40#'s saved is not worth giving up as much as 20% in HP, especally in a car that is heavy to begin with. It's not an outlaw sprint car where 40# means all the difference in the world.

I'm not knocking the TA block project and commend Mike on taking on the project. I'm also waiting patiently on the sidelines, like most to, see how it works out. I could be wrong, but rom the perspective of someone who has, or is building, a high HP Buick V6 I personally would want an iron block.

We will know the answer to all these questions this year. There are enough guys out there, including Tony, who will be a BIG player in pushing the envelope with the block this year. Thanks Tony for taking the step with the TA block. A lot of hopeful people are watching you. I hope we can get some accurate information from a range on independent engine builders/car owners to state the dimensional stability of the block after a season of chaos.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by turbobuick
What advantage does alum have over an iron block?

An all alum engine will make less HP, distort easier, and wear out faster than an iron block.

The only advantage is it is lighter and easier to repair.

Can I ask where you sourced your data to make those claims?.
I find it hard to believe that the new vettes are making 400 HP from a 427, that has to meet an EPA mandate of 100,000 mile warranty for emissions could suffer from what you claim, and still meet the emission specs. 100,000 miles is long time, IMO.

And being able to weld up a block if it kicks a rod out vs trashing it, IMO, is a nice plus at the higher HP levels, again, IMO.

 

[turbobuick]

Originally posted by bruce
Can I ask where you sourced your data to make those claims?.
IMO.

Alum will always make less HP than iron due to heat dissipation. On higher HP engines (>1000HP) you will also have a greater potential for loss of ring seal due to bore distortion.

Most of this comes from my engine builder who builds a lot of high $$ circle track engines both alum and iron and including his own Busch team. In discussing my last build we looked at the TA block extensively. He told me bottom line the identical motors built and run on the same day and same dyno the iron block motor will make more HP hands down. He has personally seen as much as 20%, on the dyno.

Comparing a 1000+ HP race engine to a 400 HP production car that is orginally designed as an alum engine is not exactly an apples to apples comparision. I don't think there would be any issue at all running a TA block at 400 hp or even 800 for that matter. I think it MAY be an issue over 1000 HP though. I personally would perfer an iron block for these reasons. For now I will sit back as see what becomes of it. Again, I'm not knocking it just pointing out potential issues.

 

[turbobuick]

Originally posted by bruce
Can I ask where you sourced your data to make those claims?.
I find it hard to believe that the new vettes are making 400 HP from a 427, that has to meet an EPA mandate of 100,000 mile warranty for emissions could suffer from what you claim, and still meet the emission specs. 100,000 miles is long time, IMO.

And being able to weld up a block if it kicks a rod out vs trashing it, IMO, is a nice plus at the higher HP levels, again, IMO.

BTW, correct me if I'm wrong but don't a lot of the higher HP LS1 guys switch to iron truck blocks? I know Ford switched to an iron blcok on the 03 Cobra due to the higher HP rating.

 

[chevyII]

Ditto on the Iron VS alum. And you need to pay close attention to the sleeves and alot of custom parts for the TA. 3800+ 1500 in machining plus the custom pickup/engine mounts. 4000 sounds better and better,just make the cylinders .250 thick and I think you will eliminate the cracking. I personally have just built an extremely high dollar car set up for a stage engine. In the future I want to build a nasty engine and It looks like the blocks are going extinct.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by turbobuick
BTW, correct me if I'm wrong but don't a lot of the higher HP LS1 guys switch to iron truck blocks? I know Ford switched to an iron blcok on the 03 Cobra due to the higher HP rating.

Well, the Miller Indy car engines made 1,100+ HP from a little 4 Cyl AL block, the old Cam-Am cars made 900+ HP in more or less an endurance engine, Porsche in the 917 were at about 1,000HP with an AL air cooled engine. I beleive just about all the LeMans winners for the last couple of decades were based on AL engine blocks. All the rotary engines are AL block based. How about F1?, I can't remember the last Iron block they used (BMW?).

While switching to iron may happen due to a poor AL engine design, labeling them all as being bad or prone to some faults, IMO, isn't doing them justice.