Question on radiators

[GNRick]

I've seen comparison tests between intercoolers, but not between radiators. How do you objectively pick one? Thickness? Number of cores? Aluminum vs. brass? Prices go from $100 (F-body) to $800 (BeCool). I'm so confused!

 

[Squid4life]

Check out a thread I started about ALRADCO American made radiators. California guy who has a manufacturing background and loves the Turbo Buicks decided to make some rads. I got rid of the F body as some leak between the plastic and alum joint. I really wanted American made too. I put an info thread on here about it, its really amazing. Cools like mad, looks stock if powdercoated, and is a very well made piece. I am typing on my phone so don't have the link to my thread handy, but search "ALRADCO AMERICAN MADE" and you should see it.

It has two big rows where the fbod has one, etc. I put lots of comparisons in there. Hope this helps.

 

[87GN_70GS]

I've seen comparison tests between intercoolers, but not between radiators. How do you objectively pick one? Thickness? Number of cores? Aluminum vs. brass? Prices go from $100 (F-body) to $800 (BeCool). I'm so confused!

A good (but certainly not the end-all be-all) measure of capacity is the total tube area. Example; a certain core (pick your material, comparison is between similar types) has 3 rows of 1/2" tubes, and there are 40 tubes per row. Thats 120 total 1/2" tubes, or 60 tube-inches. Another core has 2 rows of 1" tubes, and there are 30 tubes per row. So thats 60 total 1" tubes or 60 tube-inches. So they are the same? Well kinda, they are close but the nod goes to the one with the the larger tubes. It has to do with flat-to-tube ratio: larger tubes have more area to transfer heat to the fins.

 

[GNONYX]

Before I moved from Long Island NY, I had a Radiator shop took my original radiator, open the top section, boil out the radiator then use a brush rod each individual tubing, and reboil again. According to him, the factory did a poor job of assembling the top section with the tubing and fins together, and this is also where leaks can occur. He then resolder the top section, repainted to original color.

 

[Squid4life]

Check out a thread I started about ALRADCO American made radiators.QUOTE]


Here is the thread I was referencing above in my other post:

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/ge...-aluminum-radiator-american-made-alradco.html

I like this radiator not only because it works great, but it looks stock, made in the US, and is aluminum which I feel dissipates heat better than brass/copper.

 

[GNRick]

A good (but certainly not the end-all be-all) measure of capacity is the total tube area. Example; a certain core (pick your material, comparison is between similar types) has 3 rows of 1/2" tubes, and there are 40 tubes per row. Thats 120 total 1/2" tubes, or 60 tube-inches. Another core has 2 rows of 1" tubes, and there are 30 tubes per row. So thats 60 total 1" tubes or 60 tube-inches. So they are the same? Well kinda, they are close but the nod goes to the one with the the larger tubes. It has to do with flat-to-tube ratio: larger tubes have more area to transfer heat to the fins.

That helps. Maybe some vendors will chime in as to how their's fits into your analysis. Thanks.

 

[Squid4life]

I think Peter from ALRADCO addressed fins per inch in this thread. Not sure how to convert or if you are speaking the same language, but here is more info:

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/alradco/327425-aluminum-radiator-dual-coolers.html

 

[Nick Micale]

That helps. Maybe some vendors will chime in as to how their's fits into your analysis. Thanks.

I will step into this discussion, as I believe no one on this board has more actual experience with turbo Buick cooling systems than I which began in 1987 with my first new turbo car, and MANY since then.

Also, I believe our desert heat is more intense and the season longer lasting than in any other large city.

Yes, there are many factors that make up the selection of radiators, tube size, number of tubes, number of rows of tubes, placement of tubes, fin count, material, solder or welding methods, type of solder, workmanship, all of which affect performance.

There are also other factors that affect cooling, size of cooling units inside the radiator for engine oil and trans fluid, cooling fan and other factors.

Variables in each car can vary as to affect airflow such as front mount IC, tranny coolers and make a big difference in cooling efficiency.

I have actually run and tested most all types, kinds, and makes of radiators, including different sizes and materials except for the F-body piece which I would not consider for a T-R with its plastic tanks here in the desert. They do not hold up well in our extreme temperatures.

Most all quality radiators will do the job of cooling properly no matter if it is copper or aluminum, I have witnessed almost no difference when I have tested the difference between them. This is actual tests on many turbo Buicks under the same conditions in our brutal summer heat.

I know Squid4life is excited about his alum rad, but I know it could be replaced with a high efficiency copper radiator, and there would be no perceptible difference in the operating temperature. I am not bashing him or the radiator, just that in real world conditions, the alum vs. copper work the same in our cars.

Yes, there are many owners that will state "my car cools much better with _____ radiator". That is probably true, they removed and an old, wore out radiator, and replaced it with a new one, it should work better.

What is also important is what is inside the radiator, and how well it is serviced? The owner of the oldest radiator shop in the city told me he "would be out of business if every one would change their coolant every 6-12 months"! :biggrin:

 

[ShaunKris]

Check out a thread I started about ALRADCO American made radiators. California guy who has a manufacturing background and loves the Turbo Buicks decided to make some rads. I got rid of the F body as some leak between the plastic and alum joint. I really wanted American made too. I put an info thread on here about it, its really amazing. Cools like mad, looks stock if powdercoated, and is a very well made piece. I am typing on my phone so don't have the link to my thread handy, but search "ALRADCO AMERICAN MADE" and you should see it.

It has two big rows where the fbod has one, etc. I put lots of comparisons in there. Hope this helps.

Someone told me that there earlier too so I looked them up and I couldn’t find anything for them . However I did learn about a company called Cold Case and they make an oversize twin core that they claim will cool better than a 3 or a 4 core even. So I bought the darn thing from Gbody parts. From what I gather it looks like a work of art but I haven’t received it yet so I’ll do a box on the opening and put it on YouTube When I get it. It should be here in about a week. From all the reading I did and from talking to Jason at RJC, it is the way to go. He also told me to get the wiring kit from Casper’s and the fans from Hartline. However I couldn’t find the fans on Hartlines website. So I just bought the entire kit from Gbody parts that comes with the radiator. Definitely not a cheap piece but I’m glad that I got it because my car definitely needs some help in that department. I’ll update when it’s installed.

 

[captndave737]

The thermal conductivity, in our operating temperature range is 240 btu/hr. for aluminum, 392 btu/hr. for copper and depending on the alloy between 22 and 120 btu/hr for brass. So the copper would be the best although personally I’ve never seen one.

I replaced the stock brass radiator with a “high efficiency” 4 row brass radiator and saw no change. With a 160 deg. Tstat the car would run 200+ sitting in traffic on a 100 deg day. AC on. I added dual fans, no change. I got an Alradico and had to replace the Tstat with a 180 deg. So the temp would go above 165. Too cool temps are terrible on gas mileage and I was doing lots of long distance driving towing my boat.

 

[rodruckus]

I still don't understand why you guys get all crazy on your cooling systems, but never put a real deal, high flow water pump in. I still have my original, 150k+ mi, stock 30 yo radiator with a Flow Kooler water pump and 160° thermostat. Also, I run 50/50 water/antifreeze. I cruise at 162°-163° and spike momentarily at 167° when my fan comes on. The highest I've ever registered on my scanmaster was 179°, and that was after several consecutive wot hits with the weather in the high 80s. Afterwards, within 15 minutes of normal driving, I was right back at 162°-163°.

After hearing all the chatter on this board about RMI 25, I decided to add a bottle to my cooling system after recently flushing it. Now, I'm cruising at 152°-154°. So to sums things up, get a real water pump and add RMI 25 to your system.

The Flow Kooler water pump is billet and made in the USA. Plus, if you go to their website and do some reading, you'll see there are other benefits to it; other than just cooling. It's highly educational in regards to the science of cooling and components. He has this whole science thing behind his water pumps and claims you can even gain hp with one. You gain hp, because you use less to turn it. And at the same time, improving your flow efficiency will conserve your hp. Plus, if you're running a thinner core aluminum rad they go hand and hand.

 

[fast86gn]

I run the Alradco radiator with 50/50 coolant and a 160 stat, with AC on in 100+ Texas heat I run 195 or so, no AC I'm in the 179 range. With temps right now in the mid 80's in N TX I never hardly hit 170.

 

[hflwyo]

I still don't understand why you guys get all crazy on your cooling systems, but never put a real deal, high flow water pump in. I still have my original, 150k+ mi, stock 30 yo radiator with a Flow Kooler water pump and 160° thermostat. Also, I run 50/50 water/antifreeze. I cruise at 162°-163° and spike momentarily at 167° when my fan comes on. The highest I've ever registered on my scanmaster was 179°, and that was after several consecutive wot hits with the weather in the high 80s. Afterwards, within 15 minutes of normal driving, I was right back at 162°-163°.

After hearing all the chatter on this board about RMI 25, I decided to add a bottle to my cooling system after recently flushing it. Now, I'm cruising at 152°-154°. So to sums things up, get a real water pump and add RMI 25 to your system.

The Flow Kooler water pump is billet and made in the USA. Plus, if you go to their website and do some reading, you'll see there are other benefits to it; other than just cooling. It's highly educational in regards to the science of cooling and components. He has this whole science thing behind his water pumps and claims you can even gain hp with one. You gain hp, because you use less to turn it. And at the same time, improving your flow efficiency will conserve your hp. Plus, if you're running a thinner core aluminum rad they go hand and hand.

I also have a Flow Kooler water pump but have not really driven the car since I installed it but hope it works as well.

 

[ShaunKris]

I still don't understand why you guys get all crazy on your cooling systems, but never put a real deal, high flow water pump in. I still have my original, 150k+ mi, stock 30 yo radiator with a Flow Kooler water pump and 160° thermostat. Also, I run 50/50 water/antifreeze. I cruise at 162°-163° and spike momentarily at 167° when my fan comes on. The highest I've ever registered on my scanmaster was 179°, and that was after several consecutive wot hits with the weather in the high 80s. Afterwards, within 15 minutes of normal driving, I was right back at 162°-163°.

After hearing all the chatter on this board about RMI 25, I decided to add a bottle to my cooling system after recently flushing it. Now, I'm cruising at 152°-154°. So to sums things up, get a real water pump and add RMI 25 to your system.

The Flow Kooler water pump is billet and made in the USA. Plus, if you go to their website and do some reading, you'll see there are other benefits to it; other than just cooling. It's highly educational in regards to the science of cooling and components. He has this whole science thing behind his water pumps and claims you can even gain hp with one. You gain hp, because you use less to turn it. And at the same time, improving your flow efficiency will conserve your hp. Plus, if you're running a thinner core aluminum rad they go hand and hand.

I ordered one lol..

 

[ShaunKris]

For some reason that link won’t work for me

I still don't understand why you guys get all crazy on your cooling systems, but never put a real deal, high flow water pump in. I still have my original, 150k+ mi, stock 30 yo radiator with a Flow Kooler water pump and 160° thermostat. Also, I run 50/50 water/antifreeze. I cruise at 162°-163° and spike momentarily at 167° when my fan comes on. The highest I've ever registered on my scanmaster was 179°, and that was after several consecutive wot hits with the weather in the high 80s. Afterwards, within 15 minutes of normal driving, I was right back at 162°-163°.

After hearing all the chatter on this board about RMI 25, I decided to add a bottle to my cooling system after recently flushing it. Now, I'm cruising at 152°-154°. So to sums things up, get a real water pump and add RMI 25 to your system.

The Flow Kooler water pump is billet and made in the USA. Plus, if you go to their website and do some reading, you'll see there are other benefits to it; other than just cooling. It's highly educational in regards to the science of cooling and components. He has this whole science thing behind his water pumps and claims you can even gain hp with one. You gain hp, because you use less to turn it. And at the same time, improving your flow efficiency will conserve your hp. Plus, if you're running a thinner core aluminum rad they go hand and hand.

My radiator is pretty shot there’s lots of missing fins it’s fairly plugged up I’m afraid to power wash it because I think I might blow the fins right over the damn thing. That’s why I bought a new radiator. Because I needed one anyway I decided I would get a high-performance radiator because why the hell not. Not only did I do that but I also took your advice and I bought the high flow water pump as well. As far as RMI25, I don’t know where the hell they get that stuff. Don’t know any distributors in Edmonton.

 

[rodruckus]

You can get RMI 25 from Nick at ArizonaGN, ebay, or amazon.

I'm not gonna lie, I was a bit skeptical of all the claims everyone makes, including Nick; since he sells it. But hands down, it is the best cooling system additive I've every used. I now put it in all of my vehicles and always keep extra on hand. It's definitely a must have for any vehicle, not just our TRs. And apparently, it does a lot more than just help lower your coolant temp. Nick would know and I'm sure can further expand like he has in the past. You should reach out to him and definitely order some up.

Now, I'm curious and even contemplating adding some to my liquid intercooler water reservoir to see if I can get the same lower temp results.

 

[fast86gn]

Good idea...
I have a liquid IC on my W body I guess I'll have to try it.

 

[earlbrown]

I still get a kick out of all the ''I have to have NASA spec 14 row, blah , blah, blah" radiators with fans that suck harder than a pair of Thai hookers (and draw a million amps doing it).


I have a fancy F-body rad from AAP, a heater core from Vatozone, and a plain ole replacement water pump from AAP. Every single part with a lifetime warranty that can be honored anywhere in the US. Oh, and and plain ole stock fan.

According to my powerlogger, the engine cools off a couple degrees when I go WOT.



If you have a clogged up radiator, the solution is to replace it with a radiator that's not clogged up. It doesn't take a fortune in heroics to get back to working correctly. All you need is water flow and air flow.

And our frontal area has PLENTY of grill area to make a nice wide and tall radiator surface area. Makes it pretty easy to get results with plain 'ole parts.

 

[hensleyt]

I us the CU570 almost the same as the F body 1 more row of tubs and the lower hose and upper are same location as stock GN and tanks are just a little larger.it 87 regal 5.0 HD. Stock fan and NAPA lifetime pump.OE radiator was just fine,I just wanted to take some weight of the car. I ditched the engine oil cooler added a RJC oil pan to help keep engine oil cool, a big BM transmission cooler 3 in.in front of the AC condenser, then run the cooled fluid back to the radiator then to the transmission. Keep the coolant clean ,air duct intact (all the stuff behind the grill) to direct the air over your radiator.
If a good stock radiator or a single row aluminum is not getting the job done, you may need a high dollar unit.
I have made three back to back high 11 second passes and on the return lane , temp.came back below 165.

 

[GNICETRY]

I use the FlowKooler pump also. I believe that with the exception of the electric Meziere pump, it is the best pump out there. Stock pumps might work fine but the FlowKooler is pretty bada$$. I can call my wife on a rotary phone too but I'd rather use a smart phone. I also remember that when I replaced my stock radiator with a BeCool unit it took a substantial amount of weight off of the front.

So I guess to actually answer your question- if your OE radiator is in tip top condition (regularly flushed with RMI-25) then you might not notice too much of a difference with an upgrade, as Nick seems to have some valid experience there.