PTE 6765 BB - Ported Shroud or Blow-off Valve?

[bison]

I agree totally. I myself will probably just go with a ported shroud instead of a BOV as I need to use the money elsewhere. (pinching pennies to finish this car). However, if I had a turbo used for 100k miles with a BOV and one used for 100k miles without a blow off valve under the same conditions, I'd gladly put a years salary that the one without the BOV would show more bearing wear whether it be minimal or not.

Id be more concerned about the oil that was flowing through it than whether or not it had a BOV after it. There are advantages to them but i dont think its necessary with any of the T3/T4 style turbos most guys run on their Buicks especially if its a 3 bolt ex housing. If the thrust bearing was going to fail from the thrust it would do it fast. Not gradually. Just like when a bunch of crap gets embedded in the thrust bearing its junk. One wiped lobe without filtered oil going through it and its junk.

 

[V6UnderPressure]

Id be more concerned about the oil that was flowing through it than whether or not it had a BOV after it. There are advantages to them but i dont think its necessary with any of the T3/T4 style turbos most guys run on their Buicks especially if its a 3 bolt ex housing. If the thrust bearing was going to fail from the thrust it would do it fast. Not gradually. Just like when a bunch of crap gets embedded in the thrust bearing its junk. One wiped lobe without filtered oil going through it and its junk.

I fully understand. My previous statement however said "under the same conditions" the turbo without one would show more wear. I'd take that to my grave. SURGE does exist and does put stress on the bearing. I'm sure that all of us aren't that naive. Yes, there are many things to watch out for, what oil to run, transfluid to run, octane to use, etc. That's part of our daily worries. Just WAY too many people thinking "I never had a problem so I don't need it". That's kinda like saying, "I've never been in an accident, so why should I need car insurance". A BOV is not to prevent catastrophic failure, its to prevent wear and extend longetivity of your turbo.

 

[bison]

I fully understand. My previous statement however said "under the same conditions" the turbo without one would show more wear. I'd take that to my grave. SURGE does exist and does put stress on the bearing. I'm sure that all of us aren't that naive. Yes, there are many things to watch out for, what oil to run, transfluid to run, octane to use, etc. That's part of our daily worries. Just WAY too many people thinking "I never had a problem so I don't need it". That's kinda like saying, "I've never been in an accident, so why should I need car insurance". A BOV is not to prevent catastrophic failure, its to prevent wear and extend longetivity of your turbo.

Surge may load the bearing but as long as the hydraulic wedge of oil film is present i have yet to see a thrust failure related to sure on these small T3/T4 turbos. The thrust bearing is not a wear item and will not fail as mileage and use is increased. If the compressor experienced surge 1000 times under a given set of conditions and the thrust bearing did not show any wear then it could experience the same thing 10000 more times with the same effect under the same conditions. My TE44 on my blue car surges to the extreme at light to mid throttle angles with sub 4000 rpm operation and has not failed. Boost limit is around 25psi all the time. Others have experienced the same and not had failures. One of the old ones i had had a small 270* thrust and a .63 Garrett ex housing and it still never failed even though it surged even worse than the one i have on the car now with the Precision ex housing. Its not that one person may say they dont need it because they dont have that problem. Thousands could say it because they dont have the problem. You have to draw the line somewhere. Imo BOV is a waste on a TR that uses the small turbos i mentioned. It will make the owner a little lighter by emptying his wallet but thats about it.

 

[V6UnderPressure]

uhhh.....I give up. This is starting to look like the Dino vs. Synthetic oil threads.

 

[bison]

uhhh.....I give up. This is starting to look like the Dino vs. Synthetic oil threads.

Ok. Next topic

 

[V6UnderPressure]

Ok. Next topic

LOL, I didn't expect to win this one. Especially with someone with 3x more posts than me.:biggrin:

 

[Nick Micale]

I folded in my throttle body blade last time out when I lifted after the pass. I checked the logs and there is no doubt a BOV will help make things easier on the parts. The other thing you need to think about is what happens to the throttle blade when you lift. Pressure outside it and vacuum inside. I feel as you turn things up it gets a lot more hostile on the parts and that is where it will come as the most benefit. I am going to a Procharger BOV next season and will be able to do some nice comparison data from this year with and without....

After doing some research for a GN we are building with a large and EXPENSIVE turbo, I contacted a few very experienced builders of high HP turbo applications who said they always include a BOV.

One of the reasons is just what Ted stated above - damaged throttle body blades. Much worse damages are compressor wheels, bearings and housings.

For years, the Buick community has been in denial in the use of a BOV. With a stock GN, it make no sense to use a BOV as the system of turbo, intercooler and displacement does not produce a shock wave of any significance.

But it is easily seen, or actually heard, that with simple mods, compressor surge is present. Is this going to damage parts, probably not at a moderate level.

Go to Ted's level, or even less, and damage potential greatly increases with HP and RPM. Even though the ball-bearing turbos are more "durable" than regular turbos, their wheel speed - RPM - is much higher, so the shock wave is much more intense.

Over the past few years, we have experienced more than a few damaged turbos, mostly BB's, that were relatively new, and had un-explained damage to compressor wheels? Most all the damage turbos were ported shroud versions? Even the slightest damage will cost more to repair than the price of a quality BOV.

I do want to qualify my statements here from the point of view of experience with street and race cars, and most all our issues are with race cars. Not I know some guys treat their cars like race cars on the street, so higher HP and RPM can apply there as well.

We see lots of non-Buick turbo applications at our local track and from elsewhere, and these are from 7-10 sec. cars, and never remember seeing one without a BOV.

With a good BB turbo costing $2-3000+, it make common sense to protect it using a BOV. There are many BOV's out there, but the recent "Q" series Tial is our choice.

This is not a commercial for Tial, but our good experiences with them.

 

[Darkcyde]

For years, the Buick community has been in denial in the use of a BOV. With a stock GN, it make no sense to use a BOV as the system of turbo, intercooler and displacement does not produce a shock wave of any significance.

This is not a commercial for Tial, but our good experiences with them.

I disagree, only the folk who live in boxes still dont like BOV's. It's just these people live in the closed box happen to really really like their little box, so if you discover something and want to improve their box, we get threads like this. Simpleton explains, "BOV dont give me more HP, and it didn't come stock so I dont need one" as he huffs and puffs still thinking a BOV is ricer.

Your explanation coming from high HP builders is exactly what I've been saying for awhile on BOVs before, maybe with you saying it some will listen. Even though you know, and I know, and many others know, there are still 10000's of buick owners out there that don't and will not listen, its very very sad.

Tial Sport Racing products have worked perfectly for anyone I know that runs it, just like the BOV's I have been arguing for them for years even with my other screen name that got banned for being the first to debate china products honestly with the motive to inform, and without a motive of profit (which can not be said for anyone I was debating about). Now years later look how common china subject is, can't EVER say I didn't warn you guys! I feel this same exact thing is happening with BOV's, except talking about BOV's doesn't hurt anyones profits so I imagine I will not get banned for talking about it. Maybe one day everyone will learn, but its such a mission convincing people of something they do not want to believe. LIKE Nick said, this isn't a commercial for Tial but just to help inform other turbo users.

Tial's first generation BOV was around for many many many years, with out redesign because it met soooo many of the turbo needs for ALL clients race and street. But now with the past 10 years turbos have taken off, tial finally release a second generation BOV the Tial Q and Alpha Q. The Q is vented to atmosphere like the first generation but with 40-50% (some even say upto 60%) more flow, and looks new due to the new cut in design. In buick terms it would be like if TH came out with a 2nd generation THDP. The first generation has been around so long and still works for at least 75% of those who are in the market, if you can follow my drift, no pun intended lol.

this guy did a nice review on the Q product YouTube - Tial Q Blow Off Valve- Whats in the Box?

Thank you tial sport, you products are simply amazing, saving for a wastegate as we speak.
Road Race Engineering turned me on to your products when their place opened, before I even had a car!
Their owner gave a huge demo on your products to me including rides in 2 of his evo's which both had tial prodcuts!
It was the first time I saw someone control boost in two different RACE cars then turn around and install for street cars.

DS

 

[V6UnderPressure]

After doing some research for a GN we are building with a large and EXPENSIVE turbo, I contacted a few very experienced builders of high HP turbo applications who said they always include a BOV.

One of the reasons is just what Ted stated above - damaged throttle body blades. Much worse damages are compressor wheels, bearings and housings.

For years, the Buick community has been in denial in the use of a BOV. With a stock GN, it make no sense to use a BOV as the system of turbo, intercooler and displacement does not produce a shock wave of any significance.

But it is easily seen, or actually heard, that with simple mods, compressor surge is present. Is this going to damage parts, probably not at a moderate level.

Go to Ted's level, or even less, and damage potential greatly increases with HP and RPM. Even though the ball-bearing turbos are more "durable" than regular turbos, their wheel speed - RPM - is much higher, so the shock wave is much more intense.

Over the past few years, we have experienced more than a few damaged turbos, mostly BB's, that were relatively new, and had un-explained damage to compressor wheels? Most all the damage turbos were ported shroud versions? Even the slightest damage will cost more to repair than the price of a quality BOV.

I do want to qualify my statements here from the point of view of experience with street and race cars, and most all our issues are with race cars. Not I know some guys treat their cars like race cars on the street, so higher HP and RPM can apply there as well.

We see lots of non-Buick turbo applications at our local track and from elsewhere, and these are from 7-10 sec. cars, and never remember seeing one without a BOV.

With a good BB turbo costing $2-3000+, it make common sense to protect it using a BOV. There are many BOV's out there, but the recent "Q" series Tial is our choice.

This is not a commercial for Tial, but our good experiences with them.

Thank you. VERY well put Nick. It just seems like sometimes the argument leads towards people saying they don't work. Surge is surge, and if it exists and you can prevent it, a BOV does its job. Period.

 

[V6UnderPressure]

I disagree, only the folk who live in boxes still dont like BOV's. It's just these people live in the closed box happen to really really like their little box, so if you discover something and want to improve their box, we get threads like this. Simpleton explains, "BOV dont give me more HP, and it didn't come stock so I dont need one" as he huffs and puffs still thinking a BOV is ricer.

Yup, all too common around here. If it doesn't increase power, it's not worth the money. I'm so tired of that statement. Some parts specialize in doing things other than increasing HP people!

I too support the Tial Q BOV. It is a nice unit that WORKS!

 

[GNVYUS 1]

I'd agree with Patrick on getting the ported shroud vs BOV for us autos and smallish street turbos.

We all know the + and - of BOVs, but for those who insist us GN folk are old school and reluctant to utilize this new technology.....

1) Have you ever called PTE and asked them how many GN turbos they've rebuilt from compressor surge? How old and large was this turbo? Was there ANY GN turbo rebuilt from this?

2) Did you ever see the thread in here that wanted to know all those over 100k miles on their stock turbos? Wasn't just one or two guys BTW (I think the site crash killed the thread though).

3) How much does a BOV cost, then to install? How much for a turbo rebuild that might NEVER happen due to compressor surge on a street driven GN?

Twin T70's + on a drag car = Yep (smart insurance)
Manual car = Yep (possibly 4x the abuse)
Autocrosser, Rally Car etc = Yep (quicker boost response)

Ported shroud is PLENTY, do some history searches on here and make some calls to those who REALLY know before buying a BOV for your GN.

 

[V6UnderPressure]

1) Have you ever called PTE and asked them how many GN turbos they've rebuilt from compressor surge? How old and large was this turbo? Was there ANY GN turbo rebuilt from this?

I truly do not think you can tell a rebuild needed from compressor surge. The only thing it would prevent is premature bearing wear. I doubt you can distinguish lack of oil or compressor surge causing extreme bearing wear. Unless of course the turbo goes out pretty early in which case I'd blame it on an oiling problem. Like I said before, IMHO its more to protect the longetivity of the turbo. A BOV is not going to prevent catastrophic failure. Everyone wants instant results, a BOV will give you no such thing. You'll just have to wait.

Another thing people seem to forget is warranty. I am not sure how PTE is now, but back when Joe Lubrant was working for them (not sure if he is anymore), I ordered a PT54 and was told in order for the warranty to stay in effect, one would need to run a BOV. Patrick, I am assuming none of this is no longer true.

 

[RUQWKNF]

Another thing people seem to forget is warranty. I am not sure how PTE is now, but back when Joe Lubrant was working for them (not sure if he is anymore), I ordered a PT54 and was told in order for the warranty to stay in effect, one would need to run a BOV. Patrick, I am assuming none of this is no longer true.

Actually, Joe left PTE back in, I think it was 2004.
With regards to the BOV quote, I can't actually remember that being said about the warranty, as Joe was not a quiet person and sat right beside me at the time. There was a time, however, that we strongly urged people to use our Oil Filtration Kit with that turbo.
As of today, 2010, here is our current warranty policy.


Each PRECISION TURBO brand turbocharger is warranted to be free from manufacturer's defects for a period of 12 months or 12,000 miles, whichever occurs first, from date of original invoice. Manufacturer's warranty otherwise applies. Seller expressly disclaims all implied warranties of merchantability and /or fitness for a particular purpose. PRECISION TURBO will repair or replace at its discretion any PRECISION TURBO branded product that proves defective in material or workmanship under normal installation, use and service. In the case of any warranty claim with regards to defects in material or workmanship, the product in question should be returned freight prepaid to the address shown below. This warranty does not cover damage or failure of components due to normal wear and tear. There is no warranty on any parts used in race applications or on products that have been physically altered, improperly installed or not maintained. Seller's warranty is in lieu of all other warranties, express or implied.

SHIPPING ADDRESS:
PRECISION TURBO
616A South Main Street
Hebron, IN 46341

MAILING ADDRESS:
PRECISION TURBO & ENGINE
P.O. Box 425
Hebron, IN 46341

Lot's of valid points have been made. From what we see on a daily basis, large single or large twin turbos on race cars must use blow off valves that are large enough to properly vent the excess pressure during decelleration. We have actually seen race cars with blown intercoolers because there was no blow off valve in the system. This would be an extreme instance. GNVYUS is correct when he said,

Twin T70's + on a drag car = Yep (smart insurance)
Manual car = Yep (possibly 4x the abuse)
Autocrosser, Rally Car etc = Yep (quicker boost response)

I always recommend a BOV on a manual transmission car, no matter what the application.
For years, the Buicks have gotten away with not running a BOV, mainly because our cars are automatics. Also, 90% of Buick owners don't run a huge turbo that could see surge conditions under part throttle.
No matter what the combination is, retrofitting a BOV valve onto any Buick can do nothing but help the turbo's longevity. If you can get around the potential drivability issues with a stock MAF setup, all is good. My first step when combating compressor surge issues on a Turbo Buick is to spec or install a ported shroud compressor cover. It's a whole lot easier and cheaper to do this, than it is to install a BOV properly.
Hope this helps.

Patrick

 

[V6UnderPressure]

No matter what the combination is, retrofitting a BOV valve onto any Buick can do nothing but help the turbo's longevity.
Patrick

Thanks Patrick. This is what I have been trying to explain all along. Then again, my explanations really never do make sense.