Propane

[Vader 87]

Need Help...........

ok....kit is installed....i tuned for about an hour....i got the biggest jet that was supplied stuck in there...i think its a 92 or something?..anyways, im getting about 2 degrees knock at 20 psi with Reds 93 chip in.....of course i dont really know how to play with this thing yet since i speed read the tuning instructions...i plan on rereading them tonight. Any other suggestions? Heck i dont even know what the gauges on the regulator are ....my guess is whats left in the tank is what its reading.......also, what is the knob on the regulator for that has the propain sticker on it?
....anyways, back to the directions

BTW, heres the combo:
Balanced and Blueprinted 3.8 Liter V-6

TTA Crank

.020 Bored Block

JE Forged Pistons

Comp 206/206 Billet Roller Cam

Champion Heads 1.77 Intake 1.55 Exhaust - Stainless Manley Valves

Champion - Lower Intake (port matched)

Upper Intake - Jay Jackson ported, EGR removed

55lb Siemans Injectors - Modified ECM with Reds 93 and 107 chips

John Craig TE45a turbo

CAS V4 Stretch Intercooler

Terry Houston 3" Down Pipe with cutout (ceramic coated)

Hooker 2 1/2" cat-back exhaust (ceramic coated)

ATR Blow Off Valve

8.5mm Kenney Bell Plug Wires

Kenney Bell Ram Air (no canister) with a 9" K&N

Red Armstrong Volt Booster

Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator

ALL BILLET 9X11 3600 Stall - PTS Converter

Performance Transmissions Killer Street/Strip Transmission

Moroso Line Loc

Fan, Fuel, and Converter Lockup Switchs

26x10X15 ET Drags mounted on 15X8 Pro Star Wheels<---need bigger slicks

Scanmaster II, Direct Scan

Fuel Pressure, Boost, EGT, Air/Fuel Mixture, and Oil Pressure Gauges

Dual Air Bags in rear springs

Competition Engineering 3-Way adjustable shocks 60/40 rear 80/20 front

ATR rear sway bar

HRPartsnStuff Lower Control Arms

Poly Urethane Bushings in suspension

Electric Cutout

Propane Injection System

Mobile 1 Synthetic 15W50 since day 1

 

[Turbo__Tim]

joereitman, Actually I tried injection with alchy (up-pipe) and didn't see any improvement to speak of in brief testing. I did get 1 more # of boost, but without actually timing this at the track, who knows if that was effective.

My plans are to inject 50-50 using about half size jets, pre-intercooler. You will cool the intercooler, no doubt about that at all.

It's worth a try, heck even if you only gain 25 HP. (2psi?) Also It's nice to have a sort of back up system should the propane fail.

I won't be doing mine until the spring. I'll post results then....Good Luck!

 

[BoostedBug]

Vader 87


I emailed you my number...Give me a call.... I can help...

 

[JayC]

I just got back in town. If you post more information, Ill try to help as well. Tank pressure would be a nice thing to know for starters.

 

[Vader 87]

Originally posted by JayC
I just got back in town. If you post more information, Ill try to help as well. Tank pressure would be a nice thing to know for starters.

With tank pressure at 100 psi im getting knock with the biggest jet in there....so i tried running no jet at all...still getting about 3-4 degrees....i talked to Steve Waters and he thinks it may be the chip....

 

[Vader 87]

Originally posted by Vader 87
With tank pressure at 100 psi im getting knock with the biggest jet in there....so i tried running no jet at all...still getting about 3-4 degrees....i talked to Steve Waters and he thinks it may be the chip....

\

However, the detonation does get better with the solenoid at 100% duty cycle but i'm still knocking... I was hoping for at least 19-20 psi or so.....maybe its the chip

 

[Bill_Ritter]

I finally began tuning my Pro-Pain kit today! After 4 0-80mph runs i am able to run 20 psi of boost now with no knock. thats 5psi more than i could run previously on pump gas. The only thing that is limiting me from running more is the lack of a heavy duty actuator (hopefully it will arrive tomorrow) and a bottle warmer. since it is so cold here in cincy right now(its in the teens), my bottle pressure dropped to 85 psi after being outside for an hour or so.
But like i said, those results were after just 4 passes, im sure i can get more out of this system when i get the parts i need. Plus i still am just running it with my RA 93 chip. i havent even installed the 100 chip that i got from jay yet.

I have a few questions for you Jay: Will any nitrous bottle warmer work to keep the tank at a constant temp? Are you offering a bottle warmer option yet (i think i remember you mentioning something about that in a previous post a while ago)? And what is the suggested min/max psi we should run at the regulator? right now i am running 110psi (before it got cold). i know that this is something that i will have to play with, but i am just looking for some tuning experience to help me out here.

I will keep you guys updated with the info as i keep tuning

 

[JayC]

Originally posted by GNnut

Will any nitrous bottle warmer work to keep the tank at a constant temp?

Yes and no. I would not recommend using any bottle heater that uses A) a pressure switch or B) a thermostat for activation. If you want to wire one up to a MOMENTARY TOGGLE SWITCH then I think you could use any of them.

Are you offering a bottle warmer option yet (i think i remember you mentioning something about that in a previous post a while ago)?

Yes, Dan has heaters in stock.

And what is the suggested min/max psi we should run at the regulator?

Some people have run as much as 150, some as little as 90. I personally would go no lower than 90.

 

[Two Lane]

Options Available At Extra Cost

Just to clarify for everyone:

What are the currently available options for the standard kit?

What options are in the works presently, to be released very soon?

What components are available from other sources that could be purchased for enhancement of the standard kits?
========================================

TIA!!

 

[JayC]

Re: Options Available At Extra Cost

Originally posted by Two Lane
Just to clarify for everyone:

What are the currently available options for the standard kit?

A standard bottle heater and a pressure gauge

What options are in the works presently, to be released very soon?

A pressure activated bottle heater and probably some other stuff that's in the "kicking it around" phase.

What components are available from other sources that could be purchased for enhancement of the standard kits?

Nothing really.. the pressure gauge and pressure activated bottle heater are being developed by speedshop.org and they will sell it and Dan will also sell it. 6 in one hand, half a dozen in the other pretty much.

There is a possibility there could be an upgraded electronics package for the kit in the spring. It depends on how sales go. It will likely be TR specific and have some new bells and whistles like RPM activation, etc. Depends if Bob Bailey finds time to work it into his other projects.

I'm thinking about doing a low pressure light but that is kind of mickey mouse in my eyes when side by side with a pressure gauge so I don't know if I will bother. My reasoning behind that is this before I get flamed. If Guy A runs 90 PSI, then you probably need a 70 PSI or so warning light. If guy B runs 150 PSI then you probably need 130 or so. Unless you could find something adjustable, it's kind of pointless.

I feel like using some generic number as a "reference" for low propane pressure would cause some people meltdowns and rather than cheap out with some part just to make a buck, I'd rather stay with what I consider a safe tuning tool.

Perhaps a gauge with an adjustable warning light would be a possibility.

 

[Two Lane]

Thanks, Jay!

Much appreciated info!

I hope Bob B. will utilize his multitude of TR tuning talents to take the kit where no street-car on pump gas has ever been!! (It's getting there already!) Bob will think of ways to utilize the potential gains available from propane to their limits, I'm sure.
That's terrific news!

Keep us posted as things progress, Jay.

Thanks for asking the TB.com members for input regarding
their ideas, needs, thoughts and suggestions on the development of your products. That keeps us all innovative, involved, and invigorated with fresh ideas!

 

[Bill_Ritter]

Re: Re: Options Available At Extra Cost

Originally posted by JayC


A standard bottle heater and a pressure gauge

Jay, what is considered to be a standard bottle heater? Does it shut itself off at a certain temp, or do I have to pay close attention to pressure and turn it off and on when desired?

 

[JayC]

It's a bottle heater activated off of a momentary switch. Basically it only heats when you hold the switch down. It was done that way for safety reasons.

The kit being developed by speedshop.org will use a pressure switch to heat the bottle to the desired pressure, then shut off.

 

[joereitman]

Originally posted by Turbo__Tim
joereitman, Actually I tried injection with alchy (up-pipe) and didn't see any improvement to speak of in brief testing. I did get 1 more # of boost, but without actually timing this at the track, who knows if that was effective.

My plans are to inject 50-50 using about half size jets, pre-intercooler. You will cool the intercooler, no doubt about that at all.

It's worth a try, heck even if you only gain 25 HP. (2psi?) Also It's nice to have a sort of back up system should the propane fail.

I won't be doing mine until the spring. I'll post results then....Good Luck!

Thanks Tim. I am also finding that the propane works much more effectively with some toluene in the tank (16-17% yesterday)- no suprise there, but also much better results than toluene alone, again no suprise. I will try with about 8-10% toluene and see if that will still let me run no knock.

But I need to address heat soak and I think 50/50 pre ic would do the trick, maybe with a 100 psi shurflo and an extra 250 psi propane solenoid laying on the workbench. I hope the propane solenoid holds up to the 50/50, I will probably let it soak in some ww fluid off and on for a week or so to ensure no corrosion. It is brass so I think it will be ok. Any thoughts?

I am considering a jet/nozzle from Mcmaster-carr. I will trigger the solenoid off the same hobbs that opens the propane solenoid, to keep things simple. The Impco has a low amp draw so 2 solenoids off the same wire should be fine I guess.

2 more psi would put me at 23psi, which is about the limit for stock dsm head bolts anyway.

thanks again.

Joe

 

[Bill_Ritter]

Originally posted by JayC
It's a bottle heater activated off of a momentary switch. Basically it only heats when you hold the switch down. It was done that way for safety reasons.

The kit being developed by speedshop.org will use a pressure switch to heat the bottle to the desired pressure, then shut off.

Thanks Jay.

 

[JayC]

I believe after a phone conversation I had tonight that the speedshop.org kit is actually going to use a timer instead of a pressure switch. Personally, I like that idea better anyway.

 

[GNX]

This is just a thought or two...

I can run 22 lbs of boost all day long (95-96 octane) without changing chips, adding toluene, or alcohol injection.

I have a PTE 49, FM, Blue Tops, Chip's that are (18 and one that is 23) at WOT, and 2 1/2 ATR exhaust. Nothing else as far as engine goodies. I've only used the 18* chip so far with 95-96.

Alcohol doesn't always do it (even two stage)...it depends on the weather...or it's great in 1st and 2nd gear but gives 2 degrees knock in 3rd...etc. It's never always dead-on like 95-96 octane.

What octane does propane raise the level of 91, when used at it's maximum jet size and pressure.

Maybe Vader and joereitman are beyond the octane level they need to match their HP output at a given # boost?

I don't know what my HP level is at 22lbs of boost with my setup...maybe around 400 hp? I know that a lot of guys have similar mods. So, if that's about my HP, then 95-96 octane seems good at that level...at least for my setup.

I get around 95-96 by mixing 91 and 100 at the 76 pump. They have a chart available for mixes on their website.

Would it make sense to say, "If you don't get knock with 95, 100, 104, or 116 (pick an octane) at 20,24,26, (pick a boost #) you won't get it with propane if you run it at X psi and X pressure or ?

Is it possible to find out what approx. octane level the cars that are running witout KR at 22# with my basic setup are at...using propane?

Still confused???

 

[joereitman]

GNX- My no knock run Sunday on propane plus 16-17% toluene was using 93 octane, with effective octane of about 96.5 with the toluene, same range as you with 95-96, at 20psi boost.

The propane is 104 to 110 depending on who you believe and/or where you get your propane, and best I can tell is the DSM guys, myself included, add enough propane to equate 5-10% of total fuel. So the octane increase from propane is maybe 1 to 1.5 max by my rough estimations. That should apply to either 93 or 91. Jay's kit may add more propane, since he runs higher pressure, but when I turn up the propane too far on my DSM I can feel the power drop off, due probably to being too rich- displacing too much air from the mix. I need an SAFC to tune the A/F mix.

HP comparisons between my DSM and your GN may be apples to oranges. I have a 2.0 ltr 4, just over half the size of your 3.8's. All I can tell you is that my trap speeds in the 1/8th are high 84's on very bad 60's (2.4, fwd needs slicks) and that Roadraceengineering, a respected DSM vendor, says my 16G supports 380 hp on race gas at 25psi. I run 20-21, so I guess my hp is in the 330-340 range? Just a guess, never dynoed, I may be off 20 hp.

Joe

 

[BoostedBug]

I have been using Jay setup for a monthe now. I have been as high as 26psi with only a .5 knock. Then I went into blowing IC hoses off and have since backed it back down to 22 psi on 93 octane. I get zero knock. even locking the convertor up in high gear. I run a Lubrant 22psi chip and 22 degrees of timing for my 93 octane.


I will be making some passes on the kit here soon and will post some times with pump gas vs race gas 116 and swapping out the street chip with my cottons 108 26 degree race chip.

I am running mine regulated at 100psi and with the 86 jet and duty cycle at 80%. Works great!

 

[Two Lane]

An Ounce Of Prevention Is Worth Several Pounds Of Boost

Steve raises a good point...

What's the best way to NOT blow intercooler hoses off at high boost?