Is the racing dead?

[Alky V6]

FWD 3800s are becoming an up and coming group in some aspects, depends who you talk to as i have a close friend directly involved in the business aspect as he had the fastest fwd 3800 cars in the nation and now just does parts and got out of drag racing. The business in his words is not what it was, but the cars are coming more out in force as seen this year at Norwalk which seems to be the event for these cars as they are getting an array of fwd cars from all over the country. Intense Performance in Columbus Ohio did a few get togethers with good attendance at Norwalk for all fwd 3800 powered cars but now the company is in new ownership and not sure of their agenda.

I thought about creating a BOP event with assistance of Mike T of TA Performance. We spoke on this topic last year and thought of wanting to put the race at Norwalk. But i spoke with both event promoters of Pontiac Nationals which gets 900-1k cars a year and the Olds Nationals , both which run at Norwalk and they have no desire to split their events with another brand and really no desire to create a separate event because of the argument of which track would you run it at location wise! Atlanta? Norwalk?. Most cars seems to be in the midwest/southeast part of the country and northeast as well but are way too far away to get cars from California or out west.

I would love to create an all turbo event with help from Precison and some other sponsors similar to Street Car Nationals in Vegas. That is the most competitive drag racing event i have ever witnessed. Outlaw 10.5, Pro Street, the baddest in the nation hit that event, Period! But to me to open an event for all musclecars show and go like Supercar Showdown did in Ohio so well for the better part of 15 years would be awesome. Hemmings is doing it 2x a year with its show and go philosophy. I would love to see this happen again in the Buick world and also throw in other brands, could be a riot!

I would go to a BUICK get together event in Vegas twice a year, if the right people organized it!
It would also have to include index class racing.

 

[Alky V6]

I've only read thru 1/2 the thread, so if I repeat anything that has already been said that's why. I'll re-read it when I have more time. We bracket race our GN on a regular basis. It takes a lot to make it run consistently but it can be done. I don't beat myself up for not repeating a number but watch what the other guys are doing. More than likely, if I'm not running my number, neither is anybodya else: weaterher, track, etc... Last week in time trials I ran an 11.603 and a 11.599 and lost 1st round w/11.750. I think I messed up at the finish plus weather went wacky. I think that's why alot of guys give up on brackets. But, in time trials, got paired w/ the track champ that runs Street and Pro, beat him w/a .019 light to his .022 and quicker at the end. Did it again second time trial. So, my point is, brackets is a roller coaster ride of things that are out of your control and can be won alot of times on luck. Bracket racing achieved at it's core is hard to beat: kill at the tree and know your car. Turbo Buick's struggle because of age and different rebuild combos that just can't stay consistent. Index racing is a whole nuther story, you have to build, scheme, and practice to fit. Any car has the same problem. I ran Pinks, nothing but an index race and had tons of fun. I think street racing is a powder keg, ending up in a wheel chair or coffin makes legit drag racing costs look like a bargain.

Index racing is not that much different than bracket racing. I entered a recent event on a whim and with only boost controller adjustments and 5 attempts, I was in the 6.0s for a 6.0 index class. I lost to a reputable heavy hitter at the tree, losing the round by .025 sec. What a rush!

 

[SGRIM]

Someone is going to have to explain the difference to me between the two Bracket and index racing sounds the same to me... You set your max time and if you run out you are disqualified right?

 

[SS/GN]

Someone is going to have to explain the difference to me between the two Bracket and index racing sounds the same to me... You set your max time and if you run out you are disqualified right?

Biggest diff is you leave together and you don"t choose the dial(no shoe polish)Yet it is still a form of bracket racing.Pinks all out is really index racing only they choose the cars

Kevin

 

[Alky V6]

Someone is going to have to explain the difference to me between the two Bracket and index racing sounds the same to me... You set your max time and if you run out you are disqualified right?

Index racing has a heads up start. Both competitors are shooting for the same ET. For instance, 8.50 or 9.00 or 9.50 and so on.
Very similar to the Pinks All Out events. Running a tight field with a heads up start. The start can be arm drop, pro light or sportsman.
It's a little more challenging for the racer because he needs to tune the car to a particular ET. Not just dial in a time that the car will typically run. There is quite a bit of tuner input to make the car run the number.
PSCA run some index classes. Very popular classes.

 

[SS/GN]

Our cars are like the Hemi cars of the late 60"s and 70"s and NHRA has a class just for them SS/AH.Our cars are really the last true muscle cars,kinda.:biggrin:The following and reputation of these cars is like no others,not a camaro.The thing I don"t understand is everyone says they are rare and hard to findTheir are tons of these cars on every web site Craigsd,Ebay and here. Aftermarket parts for a car of only 2 year run is awsome,more parts available than many others

Kevin

 

[VETKILR]

Some of the more regional events will have to conform to merge with other events or die out b/c they just cant hit numbers to keep afloat. I see drag events still hitting the numbers locally and i have 4 drag strips (Norwalk, Thompson, Dragway 42, and Quaker City) within an hour each direction and they are all filling weekend events. I could probably at a rough estimate say that Norwalk gets a bigger crowd than most dragstrips across the nation for its weekend programs and their events as they are probably the top rated drag facility outside of Vegas and Zmax, and 4 wide drag racing isnt exactly going well for "purist enthusiasts". Plus the Baders have been known since the 1960s as a family who loves their racers and events so its no real mystery why the major marquee names, Mopar, Buick, Olds, Chevy, Pontiac, Ford, ADRL all hold events there that is for sure So drag racing is definitely "not dying" as stated earlier that is for sure! As far as up and coming Buick ordeals,a few ideas are in the mix... but i will keep it at that for now!

 

[SGRIM]

Biggest diff is you leave together and you don"t choose the dial(no shoe polish)Yet it is still a form of bracket racing.Pinks all out is really index racing only they choose the cars

Kevin

Index racing has a heads up start. Both competitors are shooting for the same ET. For instance, 8.50 or 9.00 or 9.50 and so on.
Very similar to the Pinks All Out events. Running a tight field with a heads up start. The start can be arm drop, pro light or sportsman.
It's a little more challenging for the racer because he needs to tune the car to a particular ET. Not just dial in a time that the car will typically run. There is quite a bit of tuner input to make the car run the number.
PSCA run some index classes. Very popular classes.

Okay, thanks...

So, just to be clear, if you do run faster than your choosen time you dq?

 

[Razor]

People can speculate all they want but just look around you at "Dragracing" as a whole. It looks to me like drag racing is falling off EVERYWHERE you look! and now look at the Pro-touring movement and their events, They are Packed and the hobby is moving forward at a very fast pace. For example Look at events like the
*Optima street car challenge (Bill Goldberg is now working with a good friend of mine building a pro-touring car to have fun at events with)
*OUSCI
*SEMA
*GoodGuys- held in states- TX,CA,TN,IA,OH,IL,KS,NC,IN
*Run to the hills
*Motorstate challenge
*Holley LS fest - (mixed drag racing & autocross where? at good on Beech Bend in BG and the facility was completely PACKED! the autocross was held in the circle track!!)

Drag racing is dieing right now all over the world and as the result Tracks are closing because of it. I know some of the old Drag racers are switching over their drag race cars and having more fun at auto-crossing & road racing than a day at a dead race track.. Reason why, they get to enjoy their car ALL THE TIME instead of just at a drag strip! you can have fun on every twisty road, every on ramp/off ramp, drive it right onto any drag strip and still have your fun, drive it to autocross events and compete, and the king of fun "The Road course" that is just like a 1/4 drag strip with turns. and this type of event is growing in rapid numbers compared to the falling decline of drag racers now a days..

Just look on TB.com at all the people changing their cars over from the "Big & little" drag look to the low and handling "pro-touring" look... A bunch of people are doing this and that means this many aren't drag racing as often as they were before. Me included!

Richard Clark and I will be working together to have the first Buick/autocross event next year that will allow ALL makes and model vehicles to participate and I will tell you it will be completely awesome to participate in or at least watch. I will be giving "rides" in my car and DSE will also do the same so the people that have no idea or never done this will get some kind of idea what fun it really is and that it's 50% car and 50% driver.

Combining events together IS KEY or the Buick only events will dwindle down to nothing right before our eye's... It's time to take the horse blinders off the coordinators/Owners eye's and roll with the times! Reynolds started with allowing locals to run with us, turned out to be pretty cool and lot's of fun. Clint also brought out Index racing and that was also a success. Richard, Shane, Clint and I will be taking it one step further with the autocross and I know with the vendors I bring in and their cars it will be a fantastic event...

You have to roll with the times or your left back in time!


Scot W.

understood.. but the Buick GN from its creation has been a 60 foot car. Its design was stop light to stop light.

Want a car for cornering.. or top end.. get a Vette.

Dont get me wrong, given proper equipment you can get a school bus to go around cones.. and the Buick is no different.. Butttt all of its events have catered around drag racing.

I think people are too complacent about actually doing something for themselves to enjoy. Its too easy to stay on the couch and not lift a finger.. then complain i'm broke, no gas, no food.. etc then go buy lottery tickets, booze, gamble, etc.. just misdirected.

If you like the cones.. thats great. Its the what floats your boat deal. But non of the organizations that do road racing, SCCA, etc.. segregate cars like we do.. and the result is we are failing. Imagine the turnout at a Buick only Auto-X.. Then we start bickering over tread depth on tires and traction ratings. :redface: because when there is competition there are rules.. classes.. and drama no different than drag racing.

 

[Razor]

Okay, thanks...

So, just to be clear, if you do run faster than your choosen time you dq?

Yup... I ran 10.48x at Reynolds on the 10.49 index and was eliminated. Car next to me ran a 10.51.. it was a very tight race.. I put a fender on him and thought I could squeeze him..

 

[SGRIM]

Dragging will never be dead...

When the next movie comes out that isn't F&F style that makes old time drag racing cool again it will explode!

 

[Razor]

Okay, thanks...

So, just to be clear, if you do run faster than your choosen time you dq?

I wanted to add.. on True Street its a 3 run average. So if you run 10.8, 11.0, 11.2 its an 11.0 average. And they give out plaques plus $$$ to the closest on the averages.. 9.0, 10.0, 11.0, 12.0, 13.0, 14.0. They'll have a fastest car(King) and you basically race your self trying to get as close as you can to your target average.

Top 16 cars come back for a shootout with more prizes..

And when you look at 80-100+ cars turning out.. at 100 bucks a pop.. you can throw around a lot of money on prizes, give aways, promotions..

This is just another form of racing that mixes slower cars with faster cars.. and participants(professional and novice) have fun racing at a track. Reaction time doesnt matter. But the big deal is it draws tons of cars.

 

[Razor]

Dragging will never be dead...

When the next movie comes out that isn't F&F style that makes old time drag racing cool again it will explode!

Its in the blood.. either you have it or you dont.

 

[scot w.]

understood.. but the Buick GN from its creation has been a 60 foot car. Its design was stop light to stop light.

That may have been the case 20+ years ago when this new technology wasn't around like it is today and just because the mind set for 20+ years have been "These cars are a 60' car and was designed to go stop light to stop light" There is far more to these cars than that people fail to give credit for. That is part of the "Horse blinder effect" that many still have...

Want a car for cornering.. or top end.. get a Vette.

I beg to differ on this subject, with the after market suspension, brakes made today it isn't hard at all for one of these Buicks to out perform a stock Vette on the street, strip and the Auto-X... Ask me how I know!

segregate cars like we do.. and the result is we are failing.

I couldn't agree more, that is why I said in my post. Mixing events IS KEY!!

Imagine the turnout at a Buick only Auto-X.. Then we start bickering over tread depth on tires and traction ratings. :redface: because when there is competition there are rules.. classes.. and drama no different than drag racing.

Julio did you read my WHOLE post? Because I never said anything about a "Buick Only auto-X, hell we have Buick only events right now that are dwindling, we are smarter than that to do a Buick only event!!.... As previously mentioned we do plan to open it up from the very beginning to all makes and model vehicles. One more thing, Any rules at any autocross will Never come close to the rules of any drag race class!! Tread wear is very simple for anyone to figure out, 200 TW or more and you can run for the money and trophy's, 200 or less you can still run but you will not be able to compete for the prizes....That's about the extent of auto-x rules! Oh and you must have all loose items removed from the car and working seat belts... I think Everyone can handle those rules....

And BTW "Tread depth and traction ratings" = Tread wear, they pretty much mean the same thing.


Scot W.

 

[scot w.]

non of the organizations that do road racing, SCCA, etc.. segregate cars like we do..

That is my whole point completely!

 

[Alky V6]

Okay, thanks...

So, just to be clear, if you do run faster than your choosen time you dq?

In a normal index class race, yes, if you go faster than the 9.00 in a 9.0-9.499 index class, then you lose just the same as you would if you went under your dial-in in a typical bracket race.

The organizers can also build in a fudge factor. For instance, Pinks All Out had, what I believe, was a .200 sec fudge factor. You could go as much as .200 sec faster than what was seen from your car during the 2 run qualifying session.
In the particular index racing event I entered, you were allowed to go under by no more than .100 sec. during eliminations. This added an interesting dynamic to your racing strategy. A perfect opportunity where a scramble switch could be put to good use. The thing is, during the 3 qualifying runs you were allowed, you had to stay in your index range. If just one qualifying run went under, you were automatically placed in the faster index class. That meant sure death if you couldn't tune the car faster to get to the lower end of that faster range. If you did have the power to push the car to the lower end, you didn't have much qualifying left to find that edge, which meant some finger crossing when eliminations began.

It just so happened that in this event I was in, one of my qualifying runs did go below my 6.0 index. I was scrambling in the pits to bump up the tuneup before eliminations started. Over the loud speaker they began to announce who would be in the different index classes. They announced my name in the 6.0 class. I went back to scrambling on my tuneup to put it back where it was previously. I kept no notes on the boost controller settings, so there was a little bit of the finger crossing thing going on during the first round of eliminations, and I still made it to the semis and lost by a bumper.

The explanation later was that the tower had lost some of the qualifying run data. One of the runs they lost was the one run where I went under. :biggrin: What luck.

 

[getchasum]

Scot don’t take this as an attack because it’s not…..but my bet on Buicks pro-touring at an event will be less than a half dozen Buicks at best and the rest of that club’s members participating (I can’t name a dozen guys on this board doing it) My opinion is that 95% of the Buick owners running over 16” rims are doing it for an appearance factor not because they are going auto-crossing. Not that I’m close minded but if I was going auto-crossing the Buick wouldn’t be my 1st choice for a platform.

How do the Buick vendors benefit from all makes and models, it’s not like they are going to sale anything to brand x, that would be like them setting up at the Super Chevy Show in Bristol.

I’m sorry, I just don’t see how that’s going to grow the Buick attendance at our events.

Don’t get me wrong…..I think that’s it’s cool you are doing it.

 

[Alky V6]

I used to be a hardcore Chevy guy in my high school days. I was only afforded the chance to turn to the BUICK side when a T-type had come into the shop for a trans rebuild in the late 80s. With all the turbo cars that were on the market during the 80s I didn't think much of it when one of the techs came up to me and told me that I was rebuilding the trans for a turbo car. I'd driven other 80s era turbo cars and wasn't really impressed with them at all.
I decided I'd go ahead and personally test drive this car anyway, after the trans was put back in. That was the day that I had instantly turned into a BUICK fan. I kept asking myself during the test drive, "What the hell is this?!" "Why have I not heard anything about these cars?" "What is this car called?"
That's pretty sad when a performance car enthusiast has never heard of a turbo BUICK car. What's the famous question? Is that a Monte Carlo?
If we don't show these cars to other enthusiasts, they will never gain the respect they deserve. I still get people coming up to me in the pits at my track asking me what kind of car it is. The car has built a good fan base at the track, and I'm sure most are not hard core BUICK enthusiasts,... yet.
How do you suppose new blood is going to be brought into the BUICK community if events are kept segregated from a potential fan base? If I had not had the opportunity to witness a TR first hand, I would most likely still be a hardcore Chevy fan.

If you're truly interested in the welfare of the BUICK specific vendors, you would be thinking of ways to bring NEW BLOOD into the hobby!!!

 

[Alky V6]

It's this attitude that we don't need other car enthusiasts gawking at our cars that really has me puzzled. What is the reasoning behind this attitude? Can anyone explain it to me? Can anyone explain to me how it HELPS our hobby? Can someone explain to me how it helps BUICK specific vendors? Can a vendor explain it to me?

Does it have something to do with the word 'segregation'? Please! Someone explain this to me.

 

[getchasum]

Donnie, I don’t know if you misunderstood my post or just how it came out. I based everything in my post off of the past several years of attending Buick events. There’s a lot of cars out there not making to the events, thats with in hrs of their location. Why are those people not bringing their cars to the events? Can someone tell me that? Do they not feel they have a venue in which they can show case their hard work? Do they think the racing is to over complicated for them to participate?

A good vendor count does help bring people out. I know the last time I attend Reynolds I was so disappointed with vendor turn out to the point I haven’t been back. I’m just not the hard core racer, I like to make a pass ever now and then….So when people like myself quit going the vendors quit going….just creating a snowball effect