Hyper pistons= bad?

[CTX-SLPR]

Howdy,

Any luck on figuring out any further information about these sealed power hypers? All this mystery has me seriously pricing some forgings. How much do a set of forgings cost for a .030 over 4.1? Honestly a .035 over might be better since it will have a 4" bore then but the Buick Wrist pin is bigger at .940 instead of the Chevy's .927. Can you drill pin locations bigger to put Chevy pistons on Buick rods if you get the compression height right?

Thanks,

 

[JCotton]

I just went thru our catalogs as well as online and spoke with my engine builder, he's never heard of them and he's one of the best with these motors. I would send em back............

 

[gofstbuick]

Sealed Power piston 9006P is a premium kit piston for a 4.1L Buick V-6. The 1994 Sealed Power catalogue does not distinguish the material, just the fact that it is a premium kit piston.

 

[CTX-SLPR]

What is your opinion on them, good, bad, total junk?? I'm pretty sure they aren't forgings due to the roughness of crown. Is there a way for me to put pictures in these postings?

Thanks,

 

[JCotton]

Well, My point is, I have no clue what they are, now if I had one of them "94" catalogues maybe I could figure something out. But I don't. It would appear they are an old set of pistons used in a 4.1l non turboed motor. My question would be what they are rated for HP limits? This is precisely my point in the past when someone talks about a hyper piston not holding up, what were the limits of that piston rated at. A Mazda piston, blown motor piston that broke or whatever went wrong, has nothing to do with a Federal Mogul hyper piston designed to handle 600 hp in a turbo V6.
Whoever you purchased your pistons from needs to answer these questions for you, if they can't, you purchased from the wrong source.

 

[gofstbuick]

Judging from your description of the piston, you could almost rule out that it is a hyper piston. The pictures of hypers (shown on gnttype.org) reveals a shiny finish on the crown of the piston. I run Sealed Power hypers on my 3.8 and Kieth Black hypers on my 383 (SBC stroker) and the finish on the piston crown is consistent with the pictures on gnttype.org (a shiny finish on the crown). Now, you have to determine if the piston is forged or cast. If cast, is it reinforced like the factory intercooled piston (on the ring lands)? Since I run hypers, I can say that I have not encountered any problems with them. Maybe others have, but I do know that some manufacturers of Hypers (Keith Black in particular) recommend a little wider ring gap.

 

[CTX-SLPR]

CRAP!!!

When in doubt call the manufacturer.... and these are nothing more than crappy castings. So I called JE, Ross, TA Performance, Powerhouse, and Summit to see what was available for what amount of green. This is what I found.

JE: $750 for custom forged pistons and pins
Ross Racing: $645 for custom forged pistons and pins
TA Performance: same stuff as JE but for $650
Powerhouse: $165.24 for SpeedPro hyper pistons and pins
Summit: $172.14 for SpeedPro hyper pistons and pins

I can file down 4" rings to fit the 3.995 bore (.030 over) and run SBC rings in this thing which will keep the cost down to a more managable level. I don't know what to do here honestly, I really really don't want to go with the forgings but since I'm going with full price pistons anyway..... Honestly guys, whats going to be the best for this application for the money? Will the Hypers live or should I just suck it up and spend the coin on the forgings and never look back?

Thanks for everything so far and infinite thanks for all the stupid questions I'll ask in the future when I start putting things together.

 

[Scottie-GNZ]

Originally posted by JCotton
.....a Federal Mogul hyper piston designed to handle 600 hp in a turbo V6.

Happened to be doing some research and ran across this post and want to comment. The above quote is exactly what Jack told me when I bought my set from him. 4+ yrs and hundreds of passes later the engine just continues to make power flawlessly. As much as I hate to admit it, it has seen its share of detonation when I was learning to tune the beast. Just yesterday it saw 26psi with a TE-63e and went 134.78 on a warm day at Reynolds and drove it home 400 miles a couple of hours later. I know my car is much lighter but that should have little to do with proving these pistons will hold up.

Jack, you probably do not remember that but I was the guy who had you digging into your tool box last weekend at Bradenton looking for lugnuts Years later and I want to thank you for recommending those pistons and the "not the real Art Carr" convertor. Cannot imagine how much more relaible and the quicker the car would be if I was not using these parts that do not work

 

[JCotton]

Wow Scottie, thats awsome numbers!!!!! Thanks for the testament to the pistons and TC. Sorry about the wheel lugs, I usually keep all kinds on the trailor but since finally settling for those Weld magnums, I cleaned out all the different lugs I used to carry for the 3 different types of rims I had.

 

[Lee_Burough]

Wright-Patt A lot of "stuff" going on there To hear all the activities at Wright-Patt just listen to Art Bell or George Nori They interviewed an "alien" from Wright Patt recently....

My last visit was in the 1980's representing the Human Systems Division from Brooks....Cutting budgets at AARML as I recall

I may have a source for some forged SBC .030 over pistons. Email lburou@aol.com or call 719-594-0539 and I'll put you incontact with them ($300 range, with 500 miles on them).

Lee Burough, Lt Col, USAF, BSC, Retired

Best Regards

 

[frankg]

Broke1 When did Jesse(Intercooler) go 10's??? He's a afriend of mine and never told me!! As far as i know he only has like 500 miles on his hyper engine and had it to the track once last year towards the end and ran low-mid 11's. Would have ran 10's but was having problems with a head lifting. So far the hypers are doing well for him but they haven't been run long yet. Banning has been pounding his for a while with no problems. I think they will last if you treat them right Frank

 

[broke1]

My bad I was reading this earlier and thought the same thing but you cant edit your posts anymore

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

speed-pro / sealed power hypos are plenty tough for any use in a factory block

keith black's on the other hand cost twice as much and are not even a good ashtray

do not put KB pistons in a turbo motor or even a high compression n/a motor they will break

I think all the bad talk about hypos came from KB pistons breaking I know I have broke plenty of them in n/a sb chevys and have run s/p hypos in heavy nitroused sb's and in turbo buick motors with no problems

 

[BUICKTR]

Hypers

I ran them in my car with no problems. I had the TRW hypers I bought from Cotton about 2 years ago. I even shot a 75 shot of NOS with 24 lbs of boost through them with no problems. Car ran low 11's all day long. I recently removed engine to freshen up and pistons and bores look great.

 

[frankg]

Reds I've heard the same thing many times about the Kieth Black's. They are junk from what i hear, never used them. Frank

 

[wnarunm]

Yup the stockers are cast and also are reiforced in the crown much like a diesel piston. A cast stocker will actually take more detonating because they have a little more forgivness as far as hardness is concerned and the inforced piston top. Yeah those hyperutectics are cast as well, they are just a different alloy of alluminum with a much higher silicone content which adds to the hardness of them. Hypertectics are a little lighter and becuase of there make-up they wont expand as much with heat and thusly can be run with a much tighter piston/wall clearance which helps with that annoying cold piston slap noise heard with forged pistons, and also actually helps with ring life because the leading edge of the ring is not being twisted around as much with the tighter clearances. But... like most everyone has said, they have no application in high cylinder pressure engines (turbo, supercharger or nitrous) They are harder and thusly more brittle, and if you detonate you will break one.... typically in the ringland on the thrust-side of the piston.

 

[bruce]

From what I've read on the hypers, the alloy allows for a closer intial, clearance, and also a tighter running clearance.

Which is nothing too earth shattering, in it's self.

But, if one was to agree with the school of thought that the noise associated with detonation, is the piston rocking, and rattling in the bore, then the acoustic signature of a hyper would be noticebly different then with other pistons. And in that case might well not trigger the Knock Sensor, in the same manner as a stocker. So unless one reading plugs, and using all the tools possible, he might miss the fact the engine was detonating, and blame the piston for the problem, rather then not having been precise enough in his tuning.

So while a guy using an aftermarket ecm and is experiened in using it, is used to listeining and looking for detonation the lesser experienced guy using a stock ecm might miss it.

Detonation will kill any piston. One detonation event, meaning one cylinder firing, is very unlikely to instantly kill a piston. So it's a matter of catching it before the damage occurs. Then it's about how on top of the tune the guy is.

I guess.......

 

[Intercooler]

Just keep clearances right. Ring gaps must be adjusted so they don't butt and pull the piston apart or crack a ring gland. Care for them like any other piston.


Have seen 10.0 passes @134 MPH on 36 PSI with Hypers.

 

[WH1Driver]

For what it's worth, I'll throw my log on the fire. I recently had my motor rebuilt with the Sealed Power Hypers. I trusted in the research I did and on my builder who has lots of experience with hypers and forged in dirt track and street applications. When I mentioned my concern of Hypers he said that these were rated to take more than my street build would be approaching. He said the Blacks (Keith Blacks) are the ones to watch out for.
For you. It seems your looking to make alot of power. If you don't want doubt or sleepless nights I'd suggest getting forged either custom or make the SBCs work. Personally I think you'll be good with the Sealed Power Hypers. Simply mind your detonation as you should, and tune slowly and with care.

 

[J Banning]

Originally posted by TTA 1387
Hyperubreakems just don't seem to hold up to any amount of boost. I've had several buddies with other cars, either turbo or blower, rebuild with hypers and the ring lands don't hold up.

Can't say I've had that problem. But that depends on what you consider a lot of boost.

I think the key to making them live is NO detonation.