Fastest chip car??

[Underboost]

Keep it coming guys......

All good info....

Underboost.... 6.38 is cooking for sure. 1.42 60' time is not too bad either. What converter?

Thank You Blazer! There's a lot left and I mean "A lot". That pass the inj duty cycle hit 100% once I let off the Trans brake. I have a FAST Air Fuel Meter for the wide-band and the SD chip isn't compatible with it. :frown: LOL so The car flew with no fuel.

The converter is my old Art Carr 3200 stall converter I've had since day one. I had Art make it a 3500 with a bigger snout for the TH400. I'm launching at 15psi off the T brake. I don't recommend anyone going to Art Car for anything BTW he has no clue anymore it's sad.

 

[Limited87]

9.75@138 with Reds chip and stock GM ecm, maf, t body, plenum, exc.

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/time-slip-combo-database/301115-9-75-138-stock-ecm-maf.html


Im much safer and also faster now with the FAST.

 

[Underboost]

9.75@138 with Reds chip and stock GM ecm, maf, t body, plenum, exc.

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/time-slip-combo-database/301115-9-75-138-stock-ecm-maf.html


Im much safer and also faster now with the FAST.

Awesome!!

 

[jasjamz]

9.75@138 with Reds chip and stock GM ecm, maf, t body, plenum, exc.

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/time-slip-combo-database/301115-9-75-138-stock-ecm-maf.html


Im much safer and also faster now with the FAST.

Why do you feel it's safer now? I remember when you did that too, !

Two thumbs up to all of you guys!

 

[Limited87]

Why do you feel it's safer now? I remember when you did that too, !

Two thumbs up to all of you guys!

FAST has all the correction if the tune isnt perfect.. to both add the fuel exactly where needed and pull it away. FAST is now even better with the timing pull/knock update being released.

The chip/ecm set up you have none of this instant correction. It just isnt safe at this leval. The room for error is VERY little. Your basically dealing with 20+ year old technology. Getting the fuel curve exactly right clear through a pass on a 9 second 800 horsepower car isnt easy to put it mildly. The amount of air a turbo/engine like this moves at the big end was extreamly tricky to get right.

Constantly having to make fuel changes due to temp, humidity, boost changes, exc, exc.. gets old quick when the room for error at this leval is so little. Its so much nicer and safer when the FAST will do all of that for you.

 

[norbs]

FAST has all the correction if the tune isnt perfect.. to both add the fuel exactly where needed and pull it away. FAST is now even better with the timing pull/knock update being released.

The chip/ecm set up you have none of this instant correction. It just isnt safe at this leval. The room for error is VERY little. Your basically dealing with 20+ year old technology. Getting the fuel curve exactly right clear through a pass on a 9 second 800 horsepower car isnt easy to put it mildly. The amount of air a turbo/engine like this moves at the big end was extreamly tricky to get right.

Constantly having to make fuel changes due to temp, humidity, boost changes, exc, exc.. gets old quick when the room for error at this leval is so little. Its so much nicer and safer when the FAST will do all of that for you.

Your statements are not absolutely correct. The TT 6.0 chip with the wideband can add up to 33% of fuel and subtract -10%. Speed density is more sensitive to humidity, temperature than a MAF and you will be adjusting your system more than the stock computer becuase the stock computer is self learning for changes in these conditions for part throttle drivability , where your system is not.

 

[Scott Atk]

I went through the thread and separated out all the Stage and 109's. I also left out the rumors, and the I think so and so went.... stuff. Here's the confirmed numbers compiled.

Stage Cars:
67 Turbo Camaro - 9.31@ 145
Quick Turbo V6 - 9.37@ 141

109 Cars:
Gabby Rojas - 5.99 @ 117 (1/8 mile)
TSM3089 - 9.30 @ 144
Scott Atk - 9.56 @ 142.8
Limited 87 - 9.75 @ 138
ForceFed3.8's - 9.86 @ 137
Underboost - 6.38 @ 107.5 (1/8 mile)

I had to guess where the 1/8 mile times would fall in.

 

[Limited87]

Your statements are not absolutely correct. The TT 6.0 chip with the wideband can add up to 33% of fuel and subtract -10%. Speed density is more sensitive to humidity, temperature than a MAF and you will be adjusting your system more than the stock computer becuase the stock computer is self learning for changes in these conditions for part throttle drivability , where your system is not.

Its getting harder and harder to post anything in these forums.

jasjamz asked why I feel the FAST system is safer over MY old set up NOT what a TT 6.0 chip with wideband, exc, exc can do.

I ran a simple Reds chip with a bone stock GM maf sensor and modded ecm. Those are the issues I ran into with THAT basic set up while running and tuning the car well into the 9s repeatedly.

 

[Razor]

I think what it is.. when the parts start drying up(cranks, blocks,etc).. the labor costs to build a 9 second combo go up.. and you figure how much you have on scanmaster, translator, power logger, 3.5 MAF, chip, etc.. add a wideband kit.. and the modified ECM for larger injectors.. your not far off from a FAST or other aftermarket computer system. Especially how touchy these motors can be when you cross that 700 RWHP number.

When the engine is getting machine work done and the pocket itches with cash.. the aftermarket computer goes on. All the really fast cars run a DFI. Reasons I think are many fold. To me the datalogging aspect is priceless.

Once you need X amount of fuel to support your 8 second run.. all you need is a chip/ecu to command that amount. From there it is what it is.

I'm not saying there arent benefits to a stock ecu/chip combo.. There are tons.. but for racing.. its a hard sell compared to whats out there now.

 

[norbs]

You are correct with the Red chip you are not as safe as you are now..but with the newer chips I see no major advantage with the aftermarkets, as you lose a lot of features on the street.

 

[Blazer406]

My original goal of the thread.... was to "make light" of all the fast cars with the stock ECU.

True.... by the time you get all the bells and whistles.... powerlogger....scanmaster.....translator...... LS1 MAF......Wideband 02 setup...... it is a fair chunk of change.

The amount of knowledge you must have to tune a 700+ RWHP XFI car is not exactly common knowledge...... garbage in.... garbage out..... you give it the wrong instructions..... you will be asking for help to pick up the pieces. (note: this can also happen with a stock ECU.... but IMHO....not nearly as easy to hose something up)

I also think the XFI's have become much more affordable over the years.... as compared to the old speedpro.... that many more people have taken the plunge..... and that is fine. I bet the old speedpros and early FAST's were $3500 if you got the later setup with wideband control....sequential and all.....The vendor support you can get now....like Cal gives to his customers... and on here (for free) is priceless.

With that said.... I do like seeing people still using the K.I.S.S. principle...... and reaping the fruits of their labor.

I suspect there is at least a dozen cars on here that have already run in the 9's on a chip...... that to me is plain awesome.

Maybe we should start a "Fastest" list. It would really show alot.....maybe the top 20 or so.....

 

[Razor]

With that said.... I do like seeing people still using the K.I.S.S. principle...... and reaping the fruits of their labor.

With that said.. a dialed in Fast is K.I.S.S. as your just letting it do its thing.

Getting to work like this is a whole other can of worms

 

[HighPSI]

You are correct with the Red chip you are not as safe as you are now..but with the newer chips I see no major advantage with the aftermarkets, as you lose a lot of features on the street.

Please explain

 

[norbs]

With the stock computer and various types of chips(TT and FT) /power logger you can have the following:

1. Lean Cruise mode - a/f is automatically set to about 16.0 A/f during part throttle driving above 45 mph and higher

2. Highway spark advance mode advancing timing to improve MPG, as more load is added it will go back to 14.7 on moderate throttle.

3. WOT Timing and A/F can be altered based on mph, ie different for (1st/2nd )and (3/rd 4th), but this is based on mph programmed into the chip, not actual inputs from the trans switches on TT and FT chips anyway..

4.Different pre programmed idle speeds between park and drive along with different IAC operating curves based on p/N switch input.

5.A/c request IAC motor bumps idle .4 tenths of a second before engaging compressor to help stabilize idle.

6. Fuel Decel enleanment based on speeds over 12 mph to reduce richness on decel and full fuel shut off DFCO, (depends on chip)

7. BLM's which allows constant small fuel corrections to avoid big swings in a/f ratio at lower speeds. Basically a self adjusting VE number to maintain 14.7 a/f once in closed loop.

8. Stock o2 sensor is used for tighter a/f control for cruise, but wide band is automatically used in boost based on maf grams.

9. Increased Data logging with a power logger 55 items can be logged at about 18 frames per second at once.



There are draw backs which I'm sure we can discuss too.

 

[bison]

I'm not saying there arent benefits to a stock ecu/chip combo.. There are tons.. but for racing.. its a hard sell compared to whats out there now.

Couldnt have been said any better.

 

[norbs]

The disadvantages are of the stock setup:

1. No individual cylinder fueling control.

2. The WOT fuel base still has to be adjusted so the WB can stay in limits when changing big boost numbers.

3. RPM rev limit usually set to 6375 or has to be disabled.

4. A faulty wide band can cause too much fuel to be pulled without warning at WOT and no way to reduce negative correction fixed to -10%

5. Knock signal processing is not usually quick enough to prevent damage.

6. Part throttle /idle timing not user adjustable.

7. only limited to 2 external sensors on power logger to provide logging. ie fuel / oil pressure

8. Maf plumbing/ air flow limiting

9. Any mods require chip re burning.

10. limited to 120 lb injectors on current chips

11. no NOS inputs/ configuration based on external +/- inputs

 

[murphinator]

I've seen so many "fastest" threads.... but never one that specifies with a "chip"...... i.e. stock type ECU.

I know you were really looking for t-type/gn fastest on stock ecu but there was recently a thread on HP Tuners forum exactly the same and there were a couple 3800 series 2's in the 8's on stock ecu's 1 FWD on stock block/factory assembled rotating assembly ! (ZZ Performance) 8.6 @158 and an f body rwd 3800 s2 running 8.90's (Intense Racing) these stood for a while then a couple LSX cars on factory ecu's were posted that had run as quick as 8.3. There is a s2 3800 in a datsun pickup in Australia running 7.90's supposedly on factory ecu but not confirmed

 

[HighPSI]

I am NOT saying that everyone needs to buy an XFI. In fact, I think most don't need one. I am only responding to clarify some misconceptions.

With the stock computer and various types of chips(TT and FT) /power logger you can have the following:

1. Lean Cruise mode - a/f is automatically set to about 16.0 A/f during part throttle driving above 45 mph and higher

Most aftermarket ecu's have a Target A/F Ratio Table that will allow you to run in closed loop at whatever A/F Ratio you want. IMO: Basing it off of MPH, isn't nearly as critical as basing it off of load. I will say that the WBO2 sensors used, don't read above 15.94 so they can't quite run 16.0 without going open loop

2. Highway spark advance mode advancing timing to improve MPG, as more load is added it will go back to 14.7 on moderate throttle.

Aftermarket does the same, based off of load

3. WOT Timing and A/F can be altered based on mph, ie different for (1st/2nd )and (3/rd 4th), but this is based on mph programmed into the chip, not actual inputs from the trans switches on TT and FT chips anyway..

Once again, IMO: Basing it off of MPH, isn't nearly as critical as basing it off of load. If you want to base it off of mph, the XFI has a work-around for it using the Aux MPH output

4.Different pre programmed idle speeds between park and drive along with different IAC operating curves based on p/N switch input.

The aftermarket does not have this, but it could be done by wiring the p/n switch into the system. I have never seen an advantage running two different idle speeds

5.A/c request IAC motor bumps idle .4 tenths of a second before engaging compressor to help stabilize idle.

XFI has this

6. Fuel Decel enleanment based on speeds over 12 mph to reduce richness on decel and full fuel shut off DFCO, (depends on chip)

XFI has decel enleanment based on TPS position and engine RPM

7. BLM's which allows constant small fuel corrections to avoid big swings in a/f ratio at lower speeds. Basically a self adjusting VE number to maintain 14.7 a/f once in closed loop.

The aftermarket is generally run in closed loop all the time. Once the tune is close this adjustment is a non-issue

8. Stock o2 sensor is used for tighter a/f control for cruise, but wide band is automatically used in boost based on maf grams.


Aftermarket does the same thing, based on MAP instead of MAF

9. Increased Data logging with a power logger 55 items can be logged at about 18 frames per second at once.

XFI can log 48@20 frames/sec WITHOUT a laptop in the car, BS3 can log even more using the Replay feature

There are draw backs which I'm sure we can discuss too.

Once again, my opinion, but I think the two biggest disadvantages to an aftermarket ecu are cost and having to learn how to use it. If you are not very computer savy, or a slow learner it is best you shy away from it. Oh yeah, you also need to buy a laptop.

 

[HighPSI]

This is out of my area, but I do know the stock ecu can overcome some of these.

The disadvantages are of the stock setup:

1. No individual cylinder fueling control.

2. The WOT fuel base still has to be adjusted so the WB can stay in limits when changing big boost numbers.

The aftermarket generally has a 25% correction limit, so it too needs to be in the ballpark

3. RPM rev limit usually set to 6375 or has to be disabled.

I generally don't recommend hitting the aftremarket rev limit if using a CCCI ignition. Thanks to Bob for his 2-step rev limiter

4. A faulty wide band can cause too much fuel to be pulled without warning at WOT and no way to reduce negative correction fixed to -10%

5. Knock signal processing is not usually quick enough to prevent damage.

The aftermarket isn't foolproof either

6. Part throttle /idle timing not user adjustable.

7. only limited to 2 external sensors on power logger to provide logging. ie fuel / oil pressure

8. Maf plumbing/ air flow limiting

Speed Density conversion overcomes this

9. Any mods require chip re burning.

I'm pretty sure there are some minor tweaks available with the TT chips

10. limited to 120 lb injectors on current chips

I'm not sure why this would be the case. If someone can build a 120# chip why not a 160# or 220#?

11. no NOS inputs/ configuration based on external +/- inputs

I will be honest, I don't know the stock ecu's capabilities. From what little I have seen, it has come a long way thanks to guys like Eric Marshall and Bob Bailey. I can think of some other disadvantages, but will refrain since it might come across wrong.

 

[Quick Turbo V6]

I run 160 lb injectors on E-85. So it can be done on the stock ecm.

Scott