External Oil Pumps.

[BlownV6]

OK , Ive heard enough of this and staying idle. Fact is a dry sump system makes more HP and is safer!!!! Anyone that disagrees with that statement just doesnt get it!!! Are they a pain the ass sometime - YES!! Are they safer - YES!! Are they expensive and require quite a bit of space that is sometimes limited - YES!!! Does every car need one - NO !!! Will any car , plane , boat etc , you name it , benefit from the use of a dry sump system -YES !!! Does your street GN need one - NO!! Does the 10 fastest Buick powered cars or vehicles on the planet run one - YES !! Any exceptions to this Im all ears!!! Mike

 

[ttypewhite]

Never did I suggest drysumps were needed for all applications.
Never did I suggest that running a drysump would magically prevent all the possible failures that a racing engine can have.
Never did I suggest that Pro Stock engines don't blow up. Come on. Don't take me for an ignorant fool.
And yes, no matter how proactive a person is with safety, **** still happens. Does that mean you should throw up your arms and say, Oh well, who needs to be concerned with safety. You're going to bite it anyway. No. Safety should always be at the top of the list.
There's always a natural resistance to safety issues. I don't know why that is. When I saw this thread I debated whether or not I should put my .02 cents in. I had a feeling a dog pile might ensue. Not sure how this degraded from me trying to convey the importance of the safety part of running a drysump to who has the fastest car. I guess the person with the fastest car should be the smartest when it comes to safety issues? Never mind that I have had a personal experience of blowing up engines, one with wetsump and one with drysump, with results given for both instances. Even a freaking video! That's all right. Just ignore that. I don't have a clue about what I'm talking about.

I decided to add to this thread because I knew that if I didn't and someone was hurt, I would not feel good with myself. I have made my attempt and now feel good about it no matter how high the dog pile gets.

I read and reread the posts you posted in this thread. As a outsider with nothing to brag about I saw your posts as a bit harsh and kinda cocky like anyone without a dry sump system is basically as dumb as a Elephant:tongue: . That dog pile you speak of, IMO would not be there if your delivery was a little less of a finger in the eye socket. Just my 2 cents. Either way, I still learned a lot from reading this so I commend everybody that shed light on this subject. Like Joe Courtez would say," I am fair but I am firm, touch em up fellas and have a clean fight".

 

[Otto J]

OK , Ive heard enough of this and staying idle. Fact is a dry sump system makes more HP and is safer!!!! Anyone that disagrees with that statement just doesnt get it!!! Are they a pain the ass sometime - YES!! Are they safer - YES!! Are they expensive and require quite a bit of space that is sometimes limited - YES!!! Does every car need one - NO !!! Will any car , plane , boat etc , you name it , benefit from the use of a dry sump system -YES !!! Does your street GN need one - NO!! Does the 10 fastest Buick powered cars or vehicles on the planet run one - YES !! Any exceptions to this Im all ears!!! Mike

You sound like a guy who has a bunch of used Buick dry sump setups for sale

 

[S2V6RACER]

So Don did you blow your two motors because of oiling issues or tuning? I can see if you made some mistakes tuning and that caused the rods to break, we have all made mistakes but I would think most certainly you would have noticed oiling issues if that was the real cause.


The thread topic was external pumps. I agree dry sump is better but you won't blow your motor because you chose a external wet sump pump with good oil control practices in mind.


BTW we don't run big boost (yet). :biggrin:

 

[Otto J]

My 3.8 stage 1 250 CI hydraulic roller motor went 9.40s at 146+ weighing 3680#s with a small 76 and 24#s of boost back at BG in 05.

Thats a better comparison besides you had 540#s on me!

 

[Alky V6]

I read and reread the posts you posted in this thread. As a outsider with nothing to brag about I saw your posts as a bit harsh and kinda cocky like anyone without a dry sump system is basically as dumb as a Elephant:tongue: . That dog pile you speak of, IMO would not be there if your delivery was a little less of a finger in the eye socket. Just my 2 cents. Either way, I still learned a lot from reading this so I commend everybody that shed light on this subject. Like Joe Courtez would say," I am fair but I am firm, touch em up fellas and have a clean fight".

LOL. I like the finger in the eye socket delivery. It gets peoples attention.

 

[Alky V6]

My 3.8 stage 1 250 CI hydraulic roller motor went 9.40s at 146+ weighing 3680#s with a small 76 and 24#s of boost back at BG in 05.

Thats a better comparison besides you had 540#s on me!

Otto. You missed my point.

 

[Alky V6]

OK , Ive heard enough of this and staying idle. Fact is a dry sump system makes more HP and is safer!!!! Anyone that disagrees with that statement just doesnt get it!!! Are they a pain the ass sometime - YES!! Are they safer - YES!! Are they expensive and require quite a bit of space that is sometimes limited - YES!!! Does every car need one - NO !!! Will any car , plane , boat etc , you name it , benefit from the use of a dry sump system -YES !!! Does your street GN need one - NO!! Does the 10 fastest Buick powered cars or vehicles on the planet run one - YES !! Any exceptions to this Im all ears!!! Mike

Thank you Mike! You obviously see what I'm up against here.

 

[Alky V6]

So Don did you blow your two motors because of oiling issues or tuning? I can see if you made some mistakes tuning and that caused the rods to break, we have all made mistakes but I would think most certainly you would have noticed oiling issues if that was the real cause.

Both blow ups were caused by preignition of the methanol due to not enough fueling. Tuning issues. Learning the methanol. The bearings in both cases looked like brand new. Even the bearings on the broken rods. Bent piston pins in both engines.
With the first engine, wetsump and only doing high tens, the oiling was adequate. I had modified the oil pan to hold more oil. I brought up the comparison of the wetsump on the first engine and the drysump on the second engine to illustrate the safety issue, not the oiling issue.

The thread topic was external pumps. I agree dry sump is better but you won't blow your motor because you chose a external wet sump pump with good oil control practices in mind.

There is no way to guarantee what the oil is going to do in the oil pan. It's a cross your fingers proposition at best. People that choose not to take that chance use drysump.

BTW we don't run big boost (yet). :biggrin:

What are you waiting for? Get to it!

 

[Alky V6]

But, they also don't have the benefit of higher compression and methanol.

Dusty. Running 9.25 static CR at only 24 psi boost is a disadvantage with methanol. The fuel is not going to become an advantage until I really start squeezing it. Probably at least 35.

 

[Otto J]

The fuel is not going to become an advantage until I really start squeezing it. Probably at least 35.

What are you waiting for? Get to it!

 

[Alky V6]

What are you waiting for? Get to it!

LOL! How did I know someone would come up with that one.

I'm working on it.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Dusty. Running 9.25 static CR at only 24 psi boost is a disadvantage with methanol. The fuel is not going to become an advantage until I really start squeezing it. Probably at least 35.

Your right. I figured you'd be 11.1 or so.

The meth will still make more power regardless.

 

[Otto J]

Your right. I figured you'd be 11.1 or so.

The meth will still make more power regardless.

As will the dry sump oiling

 

[S2V6RACER]

Both blow ups were caused by preignition of the methanol due to not enough fueling. Tuning issues. Learning the methanol. The bearings in both cases looked like brand new. Even the bearings on the broken rods. Bent piston pins in both engines.
With the first engine, wetsump and only doing high tens, the oiling was adequate. I had modified the oil pan to hold more oil. I brought up the comparison of the wetsump on the first engine and the drysump on the second engine to illustrate the safety issue, not the oiling issue.



There is no way to guarantee what the oil is going to do in the oil pan. It's a cross your fingers proposition at best. People that choose not to take that chance use drysump.

What are you waiting for? Get to it!

OK. I'm O.K. with rolling the dice with my current setup, if the oil pressure drops below 50 the oil light will light up, so maybe that will save me. I'd consider a dry sump if that would net me more power maybe next rebuild.


I have been working on other issues with the combo that is why I'm waiting to turn it up, you know if you don't have everything right the extra power will do nothing.

 

[Alky V6]

Your right. I figured you'd be 11.1 or so.

The meth will still make more power regardless.

I would like to think so. According to my research, an engine must be optimized to reap the benefits out of burning methanol. Mainly, that means compression.

 

[Alky V6]

As will the dry sump oiling

That's correct.

 

[lazaris]

Never did I suggest drysumps were needed for all applications.

Well when you mentioned,

"But when you blow an engine, even if the car is only capable of running 12s, and you're sliding sideways down the track at over 100 mph, I WILL GUARANTEE YOU, let me repeat that, I WILL GUARANTEE YOU, you will be thinking about that drysump system."

It kinda sounded like you thought 12 sec cars should use them.


"Never did I suggest that running a drysump would magically prevent all the possible failures that a racing engine can have.
Never did I suggest that Pro Stock engines don't blow up. Come on. Don't take me for an ignorant fool."

I in no way think your an ignorant fool, quite the opposite. You did say though about why prostock engines use dry sumps and that just is a totaly different relm of what we are doing with our cars.

"And yes, no matter how proactive a person is with safety, **** still happens. Does that mean you should throw up your arms and say, Oh well, who needs to be concerned with safety. You're going to bite it anyway. No. Safety should always be at the top of the list.
There's always a natural resistance to safety issues. I don't know why that is. When I saw this thread I debated whether or not I should put my .02 cents in. I had a feeling a dog pile might ensue. Not sure how this degraded from me trying to convey the importance of the safety part of running a drysump to who has the fastest car. I guess the person with the fastest car should be the smartest when it comes to safety issues? Never mind that I have had a personal experience of blowing up engines, one with wetsump and one with drysump, with results given for both instances. Even a freaking vieo! That's all right. Just ignore that. I don't have a clue about what I'm talking about."

Where did I suggest "ignoring" saftey?????
Matter of fact I mentioned using an engine diaper more than once and you seem to have left that point out.

Don Im not trying to argue here Im just presenting another side pertaning to dry sumps.

 

[Alky V6]

OK. I'm O.K. with rolling the dice with my current setup, if the oil pressure drops below 50 the oil light will light up, so maybe that will save me. I'd consider a dry sump if that would net me more power maybe next rebuild.


I have been working on other issues with the combo that is why I'm waiting to turn it up, you know if you don't have everything right the extra power will do nothing.

The drysump does net more power. That is well documented and has been well known since before I started racing cars in the 70s. If you're interested in knowing how it does that. I can explain. If you're not, I won't waste the typing. Like I stated, it is all well documented.


So true.

 

[Dwayne]

I read and reread the posts you posted in this thread. As a outsider with nothing to brag about I saw your posts as a bit harsh and kinda cocky like anyone without a dry sump system is basically as dumb as a Elephant:tongue: . That dog pile you speak of, IMO would not be there if your delivery was a little less of a finger in the eye socket. Just my 2 cents. Either way, I still learned a lot from reading this so I commend everybody that shed light on this subject. Like Joe Courtez would say," I am fair but I am firm, touch em up fellas and have a clean fight".

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