External Oil Pumps.

[Alky V6]

Class rules - That makes alot of sense. If the powers at large will alow an external wet pump why not allow an external dry sump. I don't guess I will get to do any class racing with my street car because with what it costs to build this stage 2 project it is deffinately going to have a dry sump hanging off the side.

Man. I am with you 100%. If a class rule states I can't use a drysump to make my engine live and make the racing safer for me in the case of an engine blowup, then I surely don't need to be racing in that class. It makes you wonder what's going through these peoples heads sometimes.

The track officials gotta love it when a V6 blows it's guts out on the track with a wetsump pan. I've had it happen to me once at the end of the 1/4. I have to tell you, I'm very lucky to still have this car. The next engine got a drysump. Cost was not an issue.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

Thanks Don.

A.j.

 

[Alky V6]

Thanks Don.

A.j.

A.j. If you need anymore pics, let me know.

 

[YHAVAV8]

Donnie those were my thoughts exactly. How are you saving money by blowing a mans engine up. We have been 4.78 at 160 in a 3200# car that was wet sump. But we also had 3 cranks for the poor little engine. The owner wanted to race and didn't have time to convert it. Instead we just kept the cranks rotating every 3 races. I personally don't have that type of cash. So it comes back to the man with the most money in the class that can afford to trash his stuff leans on it the hardest and usually goes the fastest. If you allowed drysumps some others may be able to compete that currently cannot. Anyway I think I am getting off on a tangent.

What gains do you see with the vac pump on a dry sump system?

 

[Alky V6]

If you allowed drysumps some others may be able to compete that currently cannot.

Or won't, because of a silly rule like that.

What gains do you see with the vac pump on a dry sump system?

With the alcohol fuel, I'm using the vac pump for crankcase ventilating only. I'm presently not pulling any vacuum. Something I may experiment with later. Open breather on the opposite valve cover. The oil lasts much, much longer.

 

[unboostedV6]

Don, I dig that ARE pan. Are they still available? GB

 

[S2V6RACER]

I do not agree with the rules in TSM that do not allow at least a external wet sump pump. I run one of those and I experience consistent oil pressure throughout the pass and do not experience issues on decel. I log oil pressure with the Racepak and also did with the Duttweiler pump and they are not even comparable.

The TSO point series rules allow a dry sump oiling system BTW.

 

[Alky V6]

Don, I dig that ARE pan. Are they still available? GB

Yes. As far as I know. ARE lists the V6 pan on their website last time I was there. ARE hooked me up with all my drysump parts. Good people. Had to fab my own mounting bracket for the pump.

 

[Alky V6]

I do not agree with the rules in TSM that do not allow at least a external wet sump pump. I run one of those and I experience consistent oil pressure throughout the pass and do not experience issues on decel. I log oil pressure with the Racepak and also did with the Duttweiler pump and they are not even comparable.

The TSO point series rules allow a dry sump oiling system BTW.

I hope that people don't have the mis-leading idea that running a single stage external pump with a wet sump pan is going to make them immune to the main problems of a wet sump system.

Could you elaborate. What do you mean by not even comparable?

I just have to add that if you don't want to gamble on your engine, use a drysump system. Period. Then you can start uncrossing your fingers when you make a run. Some of those TSM cars are getting pretty fast.

 

[S2V6RACER]

I hope that people don't have the mis-leading idea that running a single stage external pump with a wet sump pan is going to make them immune to the main problems of a wet sump system.

Could you elaborate. What do you mean by not even comparable?

I just have to add that if you don't want to gamble on your engine, use a drysump system. Period. Then you can start uncrossing your fingers when you make a run. Some of those TSM cars are getting pretty fast.

The graph looked like there was something wrong with the system. It was up/down so fast it looked like a fine comb for your hair. I have also witnessed oil pressure logs with the XFI and found it to be with the simular characteristics.

Good oil return/control will keep the oil in the sump where you need it/when you need it. Aside from not having oil in the sump, I don't think my oil pressure would be any better or consistent. Dan at DLS puts a lot of thought behind the tricks he does to control oil.

I like the idea of not having oil in the sump subject to being dumped on the track with a major mechanical issue however. I'm not saying I wouldn't do a dry sump in the future, just the GSCA TSO/TSL class rules do not allow it so I did the best I could with what we had to work with.

 

[Alky V6]

This is a video that a friend, who happened to be at the track, captured of my first alcohol Buick V6 engine. It blew two rods from being too lean (preignition). If you watch real carefully you can see my car crossing the finish line at over 100 mph, sliding at about a 35 degree angle. When the rods went, all the oil in my extra capacity (8 quarts) wet sump pan and all my coolant washed under all 4 tires. What a mess it was. The track officials were very pleased with me. You become very adamant about drysump systems after an experience like that.

The steam coming out of the exhaust on the burnout was just water byproduct of combustion from the burning of the methanol collecting and eventually heating up and turning to steam. It was not a blown head gasket.

YouTube - Grand National Alky Buick V6 version 1.0

 

[Alky V6]

The real question isn't whether you can afford a drysump system, it's can you afford to lose your engine, can you afford to lose your car, and do you have any sense of self preservation?

 

[gnxtc2]

Donny, what's the fitting going into the side of the block? Block drain???

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[Alky V6]

On my second engine v2.0, I was feeding the cooling water in 4 places. The normal entries at the front of the block and on each side of the block. On the next engine, I eliminated the side entries and just feed at the front of the block.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

On my second engine v2.0, I was feeding the cooling water in 4 places. The normal entries at the front of the block and on each side of the block. On the next engine, I eliminated the side entries and just feed at the front of the block.

Quick question Don,

Can I pump the water in the front of the heads where that freeze plug is installed instead of a water crossover passage in the manifold?

A.j.

 

[Alky V6]

Quick question Don,

Can I pump the water in the front of the heads where that freeze plug is installed instead of a water crossover passage in the manifold?

A.j.

Yes you could. I don't know where you would plan to have the water come back out. Are you thinking of reverse flowing? Either way, you should run small lines at each corner of the intake merging to one line and leading to a swirl pot or to the return hose to the radiator. That gets any air bubbles out of the upper areas of your heads.

My water flows in at the normal inlets at the front of the block. The water pump cavity is no longer there. I just have some fittings tapped into each side of the timing cover to feed the water in. The water exits at the front end of the heads. Not at the freeze plug, but closer to the exhaust side of the head. And then I have the bleed lines that I mentioned above at each corner of the intake manifold.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

Thank you! Your answer solved the problem of the week.

My intake has no provision for a water crossover and so I wanted to build a cross over to plumb into the freeze plug location, in idea that it would function the same as having a regular cast in crossover.



Your a genius Don,

A.j.

 

[unboostedV6]

Here's a couple pics for Don... Kinda ugly, but functional GB

 

[GARY HARVEY]

Fwiw

I'd think most of the wet sump oiling problems would be reduced with the use of a well designed (Billet Fabrication, etc.) pan.

Fast as some are I wonder is anyone is using a Oberg (screen) to determine failure(s).

Coated bearings = cheap insurance

Dropping the pan is a PITA after a number of races but if you want to keep up.

Front rod bearing... oh no!

 

[Alky V6]

I'd think most of the wet sump oiling problems would be reduced with the use of a well designed (Billet Fabrication, etc.) pan.

Fast as some are I wonder is anyone is using a Oberg (screen) to determine failure(s).

Coated bearings = cheap insurance

Dropping the pan is a PITA after a number of races but if you want to keep up.

Front rod bearing... oh no!

You see, that's the popular assumptions that are always made when it comes to wetsump systems. "I'd think most of the wet sump oiling problems would be reduced with the use of..."

When I'm presented with a durability problem when it comes to my engine, I try to work out a solution that sounds more like, "A drysump system will absolutely eliminate any chance of oil starvation. Period. And, on top of that, will make for a safer race car, and let's not forget, more horsepower."