Never did I suggest drysumps were needed for all applications.
Well when you mentioned,
"But when you blow an engine, even if the car is only capable of running 12s, and you're sliding sideways down the track at over 100 mph, I WILL GUARANTEE YOU, let me repeat that, I WILL GUARANTEE YOU, you will be thinking about that drysump system."
It kinda sounded like you thought 12 sec cars should use them.
If you read it carefully, I didn't mention that drysumps should be used in all racing applications. But, since we're here, what would be wrong if someone chose to? I think you did catch my drift that drysumps can benefit any race engine. No matter the performance level. Particularly from a safety point of view.
I don't think I mentioned why Pro Stock uses drysumps. I think I eluded that they choose to use drysump oiling. Maybe you would like to explain why for us.
I get the feeling you think that drysump oiling is only reserved for the elite ranks?
"And yes, no matter how proactive a person is with safety, **** still happens. Does that mean you should throw up your arms and say, Oh well, who needs to be concerned with safety. You're going to bite it anyway. No. Safety should always be at the top of the list.
There's always a natural resistance to safety issues. I don't know why that is. When I saw this thread I debated whether or not I should put my .02 cents in. I had a feeling a dog pile might ensue. Not sure how this degraded from me trying to convey the importance of the safety part of running a drysump to who has the fastest car. I guess the person with the fastest car should be the smartest when it comes to safety issues? Never mind that I have had a personal experience of blowing up engines, one with wetsump and one with drysump, with results given for both instances. Even a freaking vieo! That's all right. Just ignore that. I don't have a clue about what I'm talking about."
Where did I suggest "ignoring" saftey?????
Matter of fact I mentioned using an engine diaper more than once and you seem to have left that point out.
I stand corrected. Your point about the diaper was lost to me in your other arguments. And just how effective have the diapers proved to be? Is there any good data on that yet?
External Oil Pumps.
- Thread starter Cheeseburger
- Start date
I read and reread the posts you posted in this thread. As a outsider with nothing to brag about I saw your posts as a bit harsh and kinda cocky like anyone without a dry sump system is basically as dumb as a Elephant:tongue: . That dog pile you speak of, IMO would not be there if your delivery was a little less of a finger in the eye socket. Just my 2 cents. Either way, I still learned a lot from reading this so I commend everybody that shed light on this subject. Like Joe Courtez would say," I am fair but I am firm, touch em up fellas and have a clean fight".
Would you please take the time to quote that for everyone exactly as I wrote it? Since you're the one that's choosing to put a spin on it.
I'm talking about the "dumb as a Elephant" thing.
"what would be wrong if someone chose to? "
Nothing.
"I get the feeling you think that drysump oiling is only reserved for the elite ranks?"
Nope.
"Your point about the diaper was lost to me in your other arguments. And just how effective have the diapers proved to be? Is there any good data on that yet?"
Yes. The NHRA now requires them in classes.
"And what exactly is that other side? It's kinda getting lost in the argueing. At this point the only thing I've gotten out of this is, you don't think it's needed in all racing applications. Is that it?"
Im not arguing, I'm just discussing the topic.
Yes.
As others have suggested you came off rather strong on their use, even in 12 sec car.
Nothing.
"I get the feeling you think that drysump oiling is only reserved for the elite ranks?"
Nope.
"Your point about the diaper was lost to me in your other arguments. And just how effective have the diapers proved to be? Is there any good data on that yet?"
Yes. The NHRA now requires them in classes.
"And what exactly is that other side? It's kinda getting lost in the argueing. At this point the only thing I've gotten out of this is, you don't think it's needed in all racing applications. Is that it?"
Im not arguing, I'm just discussing the topic.
Yes.
As others have suggested you came off rather strong on their use, even in 12 sec car.
I know that, but I don't see it being enforced very strongly. Particularly in the bracket ranks. If no one is using them, then...
When you cross the finish line at over 100 mph sliding sideways, we'll see how strong you feel about it. It's all in the perspective, my friend. I can only hope that no one here will have to go through that. I guess my point continues to miss the target.
"I know that, but I don't see it being enforced very strongly. Particularly in the bracket ranks. If no one is using them, then..."
Well I cant control that but you asked how effective they were. They are however effective.
"When you cross the finish line at over 100 mph sliding sideways, we'll see how strong you feel about it. It's all in the perspective, my friend. I can only hope that no one here will have to go through that. I guess my point continues to miss the target."
I hope so too. I'm not missing your point. It a good one. My point is there are other alternatives. Maybe thats being missed.
Well I cant control that but you asked how effective they were. They are however effective.
"When you cross the finish line at over 100 mph sliding sideways, we'll see how strong you feel about it. It's all in the perspective, my friend. I can only hope that no one here will have to go through that. I guess my point continues to miss the target."
I hope so too. I'm not missing your point. It a good one. My point is there are other alternatives. Maybe thats being missed.
Dusty Bradford
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
On the drysump thing.
A friend who first ran his TSO car at BG this year has a dry sump system. The entire drive assembly was from Peterson so it's some of the best out there. The only thing that saved his motor at BG was the fact he wired a pressure switch into his ignition system. If it looses pressure, it kills the 12 volt source to the 7AL in case of a pump failure or in case the belt break.
He stages the car, bring's it against the 2 step so he's watching the lights...as he leaves the car dies and myself and Otto watch as the crank drive pulley exits the car The bolt Peterson supplied had backed out of the crank after 3 passes and the pulley came off the crank. Had it not been for his oil pressure kill switch he would have killed this dry sump motor on the 4th pass. If I had a dry sump motor...it would have the same system to protect against the belt failure.
A friend who first ran his TSO car at BG this year has a dry sump system. The entire drive assembly was from Peterson so it's some of the best out there. The only thing that saved his motor at BG was the fact he wired a pressure switch into his ignition system. If it looses pressure, it kills the 12 volt source to the 7AL in case of a pump failure or in case the belt break.
He stages the car, bring's it against the 2 step so he's watching the lights...as he leaves the car dies and myself and Otto watch as the crank drive pulley exits the car
The bolt Peterson supplied had backed out of the crank after 3 passes and the pulley came off the crank. Had it not been for his oil pressure kill switch he would have killed this dry sump motor on the 4th pass. If I had a dry sump motor...it would have the same system to protect against the belt failure.On the drysump thing.
A friend who first ran his TSO car at BG this year has a dry sump system. The entire drive assembly was from Peterson so it's some of the best out there. The only thing that saved his motor at BG was the fact he wired a pressure switch into his ignition system. If it looses pressure, it kills the 12 volt source to the 7AL in case of a pump failure or in case the belt break.
He stages the car, bring's it against the 2 step so he's watching the lights...as he leaves the car dies and myself and Otto watch as the crank drive pulley exits the car
LOL. Yes, drysump has it's challenges. So far, I've been lucky in that area. I use a CV Products pulley setup for all my pulleys. I've never had it come loose yet. I'm very careful about making sure all the pulley bolts get a correct torque and locktite. Knock on wood.
ttypewhite
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2001
I would be very interested to hear this. Please do. Compared to you guys cars, watching mine go down the track is like watching grass grow:biggrin: Don from your stand point. At what hp level will this oiling system benefit a guy over the stock configuration?
That's the big question, isn't it. I really don't know, and never really planned to try and find out. That could get pretty expensive. Maybe some of the others that are sticking with the wetsump system can give us some feedback when they find out. Or some that have been that route already can give us an idea. Actually, I thought someone already did that.
I would imagine that the point to switch over to drysump will depend on how tricky someone gets with the oil pan. As G forces acting on the oil in the pan increase, oil control becomes more and more of a problem. As a person steps up his performance with a car, he may find himself having to re-modify his pan at each step. Yep. That sounds like fun to me. Unless the person has already been through that development process and knows what the best final pan configuration needs to be. Even so, there's going to be a point where it's just not worth it to take the chance anymore and that's when he'll step up to a drysump system to solve the big headache.
So Cheeseburger,Have you gotten your oil pump back yet?
He's waiting for his drysump system to show up in the mail. This is all just intermission.
It's not that long a post; even I can do it in one sentence
: durability-wise the dry sump prevents oil starvation from the pump pickup getting uncovered at high g's or sucking foam from excessive windage; performance-wise the dry sump reduces windage losses from the crankshaft having oil splashed and dripped onto it; safety-wise the dry sump reduces the amount of oil that will typically hit the track when an engine grenades and ventilates the oil pan.Small block Chevy engine builders seem to start using crank scrapers as the first step at windage loss reduction somewhere over 6000 or 7000 rpms so I doubt that most Buick motors would see any great performance benefit.
Cheeseburger
Active Member
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2004
So Cheeseburger,Have you gotten your oil pump back yet?
No, Still waiting.......
Dan said a couple more weeks a few weeks ago though.
Well this season is toast for me, hopefully i will have everything up and running in the spring.
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
Just want to add a comment which applies to the "oil starvation" part of this discussion and only considering drag cars, not road racing or oval track stuff.
For years starting with the big-block Buick engines, oil starvation has been a major concern especially at higher RPM. Just when we though we had it under control, here comes high HP and high RPM V-6's which has a similar oil distribution system.
Drain back of oil into the pan is slowed considerably with a pressurized engine. So the first item needed is a vac system. The Stage heads have very open passages for oil drain back, no so with Champion and TA heads. These are restrictive and require additional work to help drain back.
Deep pans, winged pans and other tricks have helped to supply additional oil to deter starvation.
If someone is concerned with oil starvation at high RPM's and acceleration, an excellent option is a pressurized oil accumulator. It is pressurized and filled when the car is running, and if [or when] oil pressure drops, it forces oil into the system.
For 8 or 9 secs. of hard acceleration, this is a way to assure bearings always have ample oil even when the pump fails.
My personal experience with using an oil accumulator the past 2 years was shown when we recently dis-assembled my alum engine for a freshen. Oil pressure was good after 220+ runs and all the bearings looked VERY good.
For years starting with the big-block Buick engines, oil starvation has been a major concern especially at higher RPM. Just when we though we had it under control, here comes high HP and high RPM V-6's which has a similar oil distribution system.
Drain back of oil into the pan is slowed considerably with a pressurized engine. So the first item needed is a vac system. The Stage heads have very open passages for oil drain back, no so with Champion and TA heads. These are restrictive and require additional work to help drain back.
Deep pans, winged pans and other tricks have helped to supply additional oil to deter starvation.
If someone is concerned with oil starvation at high RPM's and acceleration, an excellent option is a pressurized oil accumulator. It is pressurized and filled when the car is running, and if [or when] oil pressure drops, it forces oil into the system.
For 8 or 9 secs. of hard acceleration, this is a way to assure bearings always have ample oil even when the pump fails.
My personal experience with using an oil accumulator the past 2 years was shown when we recently dis-assembled my alum engine for a freshen. Oil pressure was good after 220+ runs and all the bearings looked VERY good.
I have to straighten out this elephant thing. Why would anyone consider an elephant dumb. Elephants are not dumb. Why would you pick on a pure elephant like that. Elephants can be hard headed, stubborn, stead fast in their position, unwavering, but they are not dumb.
Good report Nick. How does the block look to be holding up?
Good report Nick. How does the block look to be holding up?
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
Don, considering that this is the protype TA block, I could not be more pleased!:biggrin:
Initially we made some changes that were incorporated into the production block. I have had NO issues with it.
Based upon my stack of time slips, I have over 400 total runs with the TA block.
Cool down between rounds is great, I imagine that with alcohol you have a hard time just getting to operating temp.
Don, considering that this is the protype TA block, I could not be more pleased!:biggrin:
Initially we made some changes that were incorporated into the production block. I have had NO issues with it.
Based upon my stack of time slips, I have over 400 total runs with the TA block.
Cool down between rounds is great, I imagine that with alcohol you have a hard time just getting to operating temp.
That's great to hear Nick!! So, is it the acceleration rate or RPM that a given motor/car is producing, suggest when a dry sump is needed or not?
scott wile
