We're all here to learn, Gene. I just pass along what I've read and observed. That doesn't make my opinion any better than anyone elses. Take the information that everyone presents, and do with it what you will.You cant teach the teacher ..I think the fastest Buick V6 to ever run down the 1/4 mile had a chain? I dont even look or post in the Stage area much anymore because of it.
Dump the gear and go timing chain?
- Thread starter 2GNS4ME
- Start date
Very good information, Nick. Thanks for posting your experiences on this. Fingers are crossed that this chain will be the one.You should not be concerned Don, the "newest" chain set is the best ever for a V-6 Buick which was not in the picture over 2 years ago when this thread was started, and yes the old sets are not holding up!
The double roller sets have some issues that have proven un-reliable and un-suited to our turbo application which has more than tripled the HP levels since Ruggles and Smokey were dealing with Buick engines over 30 years ago. Our turbo application in drag racing is also different than running at constant high RPM for hundreds of miles in circle track racing.
Only 2 double roller sets are now supplied with billet gears. The cast cam gear in all the cheaper sets will NOT hold up to the HP and RPM loads of a turbo application.
The cast gear in a street application will wear quickly even in a street application, like 5K miles, and you then have a very loose chain which degrades performance even if it does not fail.
Since all the roller sets cannot use a chain tensioner, this allows LOTS of chain whip when RPM is quickly changed which is why and where most double roller chains break.
Now we have the TA link timing set with billet gears and it can use a tensioner, or even 2 tensioners which we have done in some high HP applications.
The link chain is MUCH stronger as it has a minimum of 5 links vs. 3 in a double roller.
This chain also used a smaller link pin so the link is stronger there than a double roller link, which is exactly where the link will fail.
We have not personally conducted a pull test on the link chain, but the manufacturer has rated it much stronger than a double roller chain and from common sense we can easily tell this is true.
With all the good stuff stated about the new link set, it is 1/3 the price of a billet gear double roller.
Having tried every double roller set available, and all have failed [some more than once], I feel very confident that the new link chain will last beyond the time for an engine freshen. So far the link set is beyond the number of runs where the double rollers have failed.
What sort of spring pressures, cylinder pressures (boost pressure), and rpm levels are you testing this chain at? What I'm really wondering is, are you testing in an extreme turbocharged Stage II type build? Stock type oil pump drive?
What rate of chain stretch are you seeing with this new chain?
You see, Gene. Sometimes when you shake the tree, good fruit does happen to drop from it. Nick was kind enough to add his knowledge on the subject and explain it in a way that gives me hope that this chain question may finally be put to rest. For most, anyway. I still plan on sticking with my geardrive.
Thanks again, Nick. Good stuff.
Thanks again, Nick. Good stuff.
[quote="geno, I think the fastest Buick V6 to ever run down the 1/4 mile had a chain? [/quote]
To my knowledge , the 3 fastest passes ever have been a gear drive and 2 belt drives. That would Barry Kemper with the turbo dragster - gear drive 6.51 , Duttweiler/Gallina 6.75 and me 6.92 with a belt drive. Who am I missing?? Mike
To my knowledge , the 3 fastest passes ever have been a gear drive and 2 belt drives. That would Barry Kemper with the turbo dragster - gear drive 6.51 , Duttweiler/Gallina 6.75 and me 6.92 with a belt drive. Who am I missing?? Mike
HouseofSpeed
Hangin' and Bangin'
- Joined
- May 27, 2001
Ok....so I am back on this thread and still have yet to see an explanation of how the Buick V6 is so drastically different from the other applications out there that make as much or more power and often at greater RPM with chain driven cam sprockets? I have made well over 1500 WHP with turbo V-10s and LS based V-8s using chains and gears with no issue. The gear construction and chain design are no different than the best available for the Buick applications...the only difference I can see that would have an affect would be the relationship between the cam and crank centerline which would move the sprockets closer or further apart...thereby changing necessary chain length.
Thinking deeper on this subject....Ford SOHC 427s from back in the day had a 6 foot long chain to drive the cams and were used exclusively for competition.....including blown alcohol /nitro combinations with comparable (if not greater) cylinder pressure than turbocharged Stage engines with far less advanced materials than we have access to now.
I realize that Don wants to concentrate on just Stage engines....BUT, I am an engine man....and it doesn't make sense that this one engine family is the exception to the rule....and I have yet to hear anyone outline the whys of this presumption. I enjoy learning too....and if there is something I have missed in my experiences, I would certainly like to fill that void.
Thinking deeper on this subject....Ford SOHC 427s from back in the day had a 6 foot long chain to drive the cams and were used exclusively for competition.....including blown alcohol /nitro combinations with comparable (if not greater) cylinder pressure than turbocharged Stage engines with far less advanced materials than we have access to now.
I realize that Don wants to concentrate on just Stage engines....BUT, I am an engine man....and it doesn't make sense that this one engine family is the exception to the rule....and I have yet to hear anyone outline the whys of this presumption. I enjoy learning too....and if there is something I have missed in my experiences, I would certainly like to fill that void.
I think I've already covered it with the quotes by Jim a little earlier. If that isn't enough, maybe Nick can chime in with more of his experiences over the years searching for a timing chain set that will last in the Buick V6. I think Nick has quite a bit of experience on this subject.
dr_frankenstein
Mad Scientist
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2008
I am using a custom cover as i am building a blown engine simular to Blown V6s. I know that Mike Drives his pump from a belt off the crank, but i am trying to retain a more retro look (this will be a front engine rail) and have the pump in the middle. I have the one, and 3 bolt gear drives from moroso... but hearing the concerns of failure have me wondering about pushing anymore load onto the drive system.
dr_frankenstein
Mad Scientist
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2008
double post
To my knowledge , the 3 fastest passes ever have been a gear drive and 2 belt drives. That would Barry Kemper with the turbo dragster - gear drive 6.51 , Duttweiler/Gallina 6.75 and me 6.92 with a belt drive. Who am I missing?? Mike[/quote]
I guess i ment turbo Regals and not pipe racks LOL...
JK I thought the Gillina car was chain drive and had a Stage 2 front cover?HouseofSpeed
Hangin' and Bangin'
- Joined
- May 27, 2001
Exactly....belt drive.
When ive looked at the car it had a stage 2 front cover so it couldnt have been belt drive unless it had a wet belt system?
GARY HARVEY
Member
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2001
Smokey used the belt drive with his speedway efforts and stuck with a chain the balance of the time. After visiting with Harry Vandriel about this question, he suggested using a chain for engines that ran variable RPM and the Belt over the gear drive. I also asked Mr. Brayton this question and got the same responce.
Harry worked with Smokey until the last few years when the racing efforts slowed and then took over the drive-train operation @ "The Best Damn Garage".
Also: Keep in mind (I'm guessing here) 99.9% of the stage motors are not all out racing
efforts and are used on the street most of the time and not torn down regularly.
Remember too this concerns the V6 Buick, which had a completely different approach with the off-set rod journal CS.
I ended up with all three examples (the price was right) and installed the chain.
It was a hard to argue with Uncle Harry & my Dad.
Gary
I dont know about others but mine are coated and show little to no wear
Do you think the coating was the difference?I dont know about others but mine are coated and show little to no wear
GARY HARVEY
Member
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2001
GARY HARVEY
Member
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2001
Donnie,
As long as you have been around here that is little hard to believe..
Gary
As long as you have been around here that is little hard to believe..
Gary
