Why would the statons not know what blend they are selling? How is it an issue in the winter?
Alky - E85 - ethanol
- Thread starter 87GN_70GS
- Start date
Why would the statons not know what blend they are selling? How is it an issue in the winter?
Brian,
E85 certified vehicles have a sensor in the tank to determine the mix of Ethanol in the tank. I have read some ASME papers on the subject and it's possible to do this with a wideband. and not a dedicated sensor. I asusme that's what Eric's trying to build into his chips.
ngc414, they have to be able to detect what's in the tank because on the average e-85 vehicle might fill up with e-85 one tank and E-10 or E0 on the next so the exact concentration in the tank can't be known. I believe E-85 referrs to the max concentration of ethanol in the tank and variances are premitted.
It sounded like the stations them selves didnt know what exact blends they were selling. It makes sence that one might fill up with a 10% ethanol blend then top off with E85 later, then they cant know the exact blend in their tank. The stations know exactly what they are selling. I worked for 9 years at marathon ashland oil refining, terminal transport and marine divison. The last 3 years as a supervisor. part of my job was quality control. We were allowed plus or minus only 1% margine of error on ethanol blends. I have seen stations pumped out because an off spec blend got to the station. All products are blended at the load rack and every truck departs with a detailed bill of lading stating the exact blends, precentages and gallons in each compartment. They just started getting into the E85 when I left the company. I did get a chance to over see loads of E85 blended just like all the other blends. With the petrocounts, blentechs and computer blending it is near impossible to see an off spec batch.
To those that have done or are doing this. How do you deal with 2 things
1) Ethanol's Rich ignition limit. Gas vapors can get too rich to burn. Ethanol can't. Are you installing flash arrestors in the filler neck?
2) Electrical Conductivity. Ethanol will conduct current. Are you insulating the fuel pump connectors in the tank.
1) Ethanol's Rich ignition limit. Gas vapors can get too rich to burn. Ethanol can't. Are you installing flash arrestors in the filler neck?
2) Electrical Conductivity. Ethanol will conduct current. Are you insulating the fuel pump connectors in the tank.
The hotter spark plugs are something to play with, but come to find out it is not necessary. Plenty of E-85 cars running stock plugs and the like.
Yes E-85 is the what TurboBuick people have been looking for. they just don't know it yet. E-85 when tuned right will eclipse race gas numbers or alky injection numbers easily. ALSO you can hotlap your car and run consistent numbers...sorry race gas and alky injection people :biggrin:
Keep tuning you will be impressed. You might find that running a lil richer will be the ticket. E-85 has it peak torque when running richer than a gas tune, you have a WB so you should see the sweet spot. Glad someone else is playing with it. Keep us updated
Is it possible that I am running to cold a plug (ngk-Ur5) Maybe thats why I am having hard starting condition. How well does your car start
Adam Connell
Monster Truckin since 87'
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2006
Hmmm this really is starting to interest me... My car only gets driven every few weeks now that It's in storage... Honestly if there were a gas station around here that had e85 my motorcycle would have already been converted.
Jerryl
Tall Unvaccinated Chinese Guy
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2004
Kroger on highway 6 towards Westheimer.
About 5 miles from highway 90 on the right. :biggrin:
Tom as far as I can tell your spark plugs should be fine. I also run a UR-5. I live in Central Texas so hard starting this time of year is not a problem. BTW: Define hard starting. My White-T( E-85 car ) has never started as quickly as using E-85 or 93 compared to my GN which is a race gas or pump gas car??
aminga - you bring up some good questions about E-85 but remember that Ethanol is Methanol's distant cousin and much of the problems associated with Methanol are just not a factor with E-85 being that its a diluted version Ethanol. Do some investigating to seperate myth from the facts understand the differences. E-85 is alot easier to use than most think, get the fueling right and your not going to go back to crap gas or race gas for that matter.
I have seen no imperical eveidence that E-85 has destroyed anyone's car that has run it for an extended period of time that would include WRX's, Evos, Turbo volvos, TurboBuicks , etc, etc I have been in contact with WALBRO's testing lab and again all data is non-conclusive to date about fuel pump problems, though we all should understand that the copper windings in these standard pumps are a weak spot.
Furthemore questions about the E-85 vs E-75 are moot for the simple fact that ethanol fuel at those mixtures are light years ahead of any 93 you'll ever get or 100 LL for that matter. E-85 used in the summer and E-75 ( to ease hard starting )the winter months respectively... like 93 is just a rock solid mixture itself from season to season
Razor - quit screwing around and get on the wagon
bsdlinux
A basic question is in order. If my reading on the boards is correct, to run E85 one must tune (or whatever) to get 30%+ more fueling into the engine.
Now, is that done by jumping up in injector size another 30% and a chip to match. Example, me moving up from 50's to 65's. and if so how does that accomplish anything if the chip is still going to attempt to run stoiceometric 14.7:1?
Or
Would one continue to run the 50's and change the injector constant in the chip to force them to deliver 30% more fuel under all conditions? Is the chip's stoiceometric table changed from 14.7:1 to something else.
Great discussion but a LOT of details lacking in how one actually tunes to get the car to safely run on E85.
Exactly what changes would one need to make?
Since we now have two local E85 stations, this might be something to look into.
A basic question is in order. If my reading on the boards is correct, to run E85 one must tune (or whatever) to get 30%+ more fueling into the engine.
Now, is that done by jumping up in injector size another 30% and a chip to match. Example, me moving up from 50's to 65's. and if so how does that accomplish anything if the chip is still going to attempt to run stoiceometric 14.7:1?
Or
Would one continue to run the 50's and change the injector constant in the chip to force them to deliver 30% more fuel under all conditions? Is the chip's stoiceometric table changed from 14.7:1 to something else.
Great discussion but a LOT of details lacking in how one actually tunes to get the car to safely run on E85.
Exactly what changes would one need to make?
Since we now have two local E85 stations, this might be something to look into.
Adam Connell
Monster Truckin since 87'
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2006
Hahaha Ya I know about that one. My problem is I live in Denton during the school year and the bike goes with me everywhere. Really thinking about playing with a few gallons of E85 the next time I go home. Maybe a 75%gas 25% e85 and just see what it does my my scan master numbers at the same boost Im running now. I would be so stoked to run 17-18lbs on "pump" gas safely. Thats when the car actually starts to wake up. I have to keep it around 15-16 with my setup and I still get a little bit of KR(VERY little and not every time). I would have a kit from Julio by now, but I just dont have the time or cash for it right now with school... Being a student rocks and sucks all at the same time...
Tom as far as I can tell your spark plugs should be fine. I also run a UR-5. I live in Central Texas so hard starting this time of year is not a problem. BTW: Define hard starting. My White-T( E-85 car ) has never started as quickly as using E-85 or 93 compared to my GN which is a race gas or pump gas car??
aminga - you bring up some good questions about E-85 but remember that Ethanol is Methanol's distant cousin and much of the problems associated with Methanol are just not a factor with E-85 being that its a diluted version Ethanol. Do some investigating to seperate myth from the facts understand the differences. E-85 is alot easier to use than most think, get the fueling right and your not going to go back to crap gas or race gas for that matter.
I have seen no imperical eveidence that E-85 has destroyed anyone's car that has run it for an extended period of time that would include WRX's, Evos, Turbo volvos, TurboBuicks , etc, etc I have been in contact with WALBRO's testing lab and again all data is non-conclusive to date about fuel pump problems, though we all should understand that the copper windings in these standard pumps are a weak spot.
Furthemore questions about the E-85 vs E-75 are moot for the simple fact that ethanol fuel at those mixtures are light years ahead of any 93 you'll ever get or 100 LL for that matter. E-85 used in the summer and E-75 ( to ease hard starting )the winter months respectively... like 93 is just a rock solid mixture itself from season to season
Razor - quit screwing around and get on the wagon
I have to play with the gas pedal (just a bump) to keep it running for about the first 5 sec. or so this happens when the engine is either hot or cold, I played with the fuel adding subtracting it did nothing, I also just installed a new coil pack. Car runs great it just starts crappy. It always started right up with gas before I changed it over.
Found the starter switch not keeping constant power to the ecm durring startup know it starts fine. It does run well check it out
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/general-turbo-buick-tech/230092-e85-tpro-500hp.html#post1675673
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/general-turbo-buick-tech/230092-e85-tpro-500hp.html#post1675673
Anyone?
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2006
If you have enough duty cycle left on the table one could just make some tuning adjustments (add a crap load of fuel). I can tell you that 50's would not cut the mustard.
I'm running 83's right now, same as Tom J and on 93 oct and alky I'm like 60% duty cyle. They say 30% more fuel is needed to do what gas is doing.
That seems to be right. With the same injectors, Tom's duty cycle is in the 90's.
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2006
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