Alky - E85 - ethanol
- Thread starter 87GN_70GS
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vacuum 6
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2006
Sounds like you have a old BGC alky kit. Redesign the system so its pressurized , that should fix the issue. I've run a .060 with no issues but then again I had to pull fuel to run right. Need something PM me. Anyway dont mean to hack this thread...back to the E85 topic.
Actually I have a homemade system with the tank from an osmosis water purification system that holds and is pressurized to 100psi. I've run an air hose (rubber-will withstand over 300psi) to copper and then a NOS solenoid that sprays through braided steel into the up-pipe through a NOS jet as previously stated. The solenoid is actived by a Hobbs switch (to ground) set at 13psi. Very simple and effective system which works great up to a point. No motors and the tank will hold a LOT of alcohol (I filled it and drained it once--filled two big plastic soda bottles). I just have to make sure I've got enough alcohol and air pressure and viola! Ready to go.
Keith
Keith
Don't forget that you need a flash arrestor in the filler neck. E85's rich ignition limit is much higher than Gas. Plan ol gasoline won't ignite in the filler neck because there's not enough O2. Ethanol will.
Another consideration for factory vehicles was how to measure the actual ammount of ethanol in the tank since a flex fuel is supposed to run on pure gas to E-85. You might have varying prercentages at any time. They have a dedicated sensor but it seems to me like some clever chip calibration + a wideband could figure it out.
Here's some information
http://research.utep.edu/portals/640/99utep_evc.pdf
Another consideration for factory vehicles was how to measure the actual ammount of ethanol in the tank since a flex fuel is supposed to run on pure gas to E-85. You might have varying prercentages at any time. They have a dedicated sensor but it seems to me like some clever chip calibration + a wideband could figure it out.
Here's some information
http://research.utep.edu/portals/640/99utep_evc.pdf
Interesting. Is a flash arrestor that little spring-loaded, hinged lid that you have to push the gas nozzle past, there in the front of the filler neck?
I did notice that the E-85 competition you referenced in your link was in 1999. I currently have a 2002 Suburban flex-fuel vehicle that runs on E-85 all the time. It gets about 2-3 mpg less than with gas, but at $.45 a gallon difference (around here) it works out OK. Not a fuel mileage king with gas or E-85, if you know what I mean.
Unfortunately, according to the EPA, converting your car to straight ethanol equates to violating federal law... stiff penalties involved if you're caught. Their web site says no company has yet to get EPA certification to change a straight gas-burner into a straight ethanol or E85 burner...
Keith
I did notice that the E-85 competition you referenced in your link was in 1999. I currently have a 2002 Suburban flex-fuel vehicle that runs on E-85 all the time. It gets about 2-3 mpg less than with gas, but at $.45 a gallon difference (around here) it works out OK. Not a fuel mileage king with gas or E-85, if you know what I mean.
Unfortunately, according to the EPA, converting your car to straight ethanol equates to violating federal law... stiff penalties involved if you're caught. Their web site says no company has yet to get EPA certification to change a straight gas-burner into a straight ethanol or E85 burner...
Keith
I put 7 gallons of E85 (guaranteed to be at least 70% ethanol... ) and 7 gallons of 91 octane in my tank on what was left of a 93 octane/30% xylene mix. Not much of that left obviously. Anyway, I was able to crank 26psi boost with only one green light on my knock detector, so I turned it up. Even more boost with only the one green light. Blew a boost hose off though. How do you keep the hoses on at high boost? I'm already using "T" clamps tightened down so tight they're almost crushing the steel. My hood blanket is all torn up from the up-pipe popping off. This time it was the pipe INTO the FMIC (Ford diesel intercooler).
In any case, lots of boost. But I'm not sure I'm making any more POWER with all that boost. My "butt" accelerometer can't tell, although it seems like it's spooling slower. I guess I'm going to have to go to the track and try different fuels. That will be time consuming!
My concern, on the other hand, is that the fuel pump will quit--even before any O-rings, seals, gas tank, or fuel lines corrode. I have a Walbro 340, which is not an alcohol-rated pump. I've had an electric fuel pump quit before, just from adding "Heet" to the gas (Heet is basically just alcohol). Any opinions on that?
Keith
In any case, lots of boost. But I'm not sure I'm making any more POWER with all that boost. My "butt" accelerometer can't tell, although it seems like it's spooling slower. I guess I'm going to have to go to the track and try different fuels. That will be time consuming!
My concern, on the other hand, is that the fuel pump will quit--even before any O-rings, seals, gas tank, or fuel lines corrode. I have a Walbro 340, which is not an alcohol-rated pump. I've had an electric fuel pump quit before, just from adding "Heet" to the gas (Heet is basically just alcohol). Any opinions on that?
Keith
bowling green tec session..
the tec session addressed a few questions concerning e-85 at bowling green this year. the guys at full throttle along with eric marshall if i got that right correct me if not, have been working on a system to convert our cars to be able to use e-85. I believe they said the system will be in the 1500 dollar range and consist of a computer mod as well as a system with 2 95lb injectors to feed the e-85, Im not sure of all the specifics but they said the system should be availible after it gets approved by the goverment testing. hopefully this will be soon since the e-85 is clean burinig and has great octane plus it's cheap. if anyone has more info please ring in....
the tec session addressed a few questions concerning e-85 at bowling green this year. the guys at full throttle along with eric marshall if i got that right correct me if not, have been working on a system to convert our cars to be able to use e-85. I believe they said the system will be in the 1500 dollar range and consist of a computer mod as well as a system with 2 95lb injectors to feed the e-85, Im not sure of all the specifics but they said the system should be availible after it gets approved by the goverment testing. hopefully this will be soon since the e-85 is clean burinig and has great octane plus it's cheap. if anyone has more info please ring in....
Seems to me that we should just run bigger injectors, fuel supply, fuel return and fuel pump. We do need to be sure everything is compatible with the fuel. Does anyone know if the Aeromotive A1000 pump is compatible? I already have 72# injectors, -10 supply, -8 return, Aeromotive A100 pump and external FPR. May need a larger FPR. Will check the hose to see if it is ok.
The E85 should be much closer to straight gasoline than straight ethanol so the conversion should be fairly simple.
Anyone else got any thoughts or experience?
Conrad Carter
The E85 should be much closer to straight gasoline than straight ethanol so the conversion should be fairly simple.
Anyone else got any thoughts or experience?
Conrad Carter
No that's the unleaded restrictor. To keep Leaded nozzles out of the tank. A flash arrestor is a metal screen in the filler neck. Supposedly the flame front can't travel through the grid but liquid fuel will still flow through.
With BIO fuels becoming more prevalent I have heard of folks getting busted for a tax violation for running homeade bio fuel in their vehicles. It's a tax violation because their stuff doesn't have road taxes included. Latest case was a motorhome going to The Coke 600 in charoltte.
novaderrik
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 12, 2004
and a failure due to 23 year old lines and hose filled with gasoline will be somehow better? in that situation, i think i'd rather have a slow, cold burning alky fire instead of a straight gasoline fire.Be sure to have a fire extinguisher handy....A failure caused by E85 will make you vulnerable for a fire when the leaks start.
all of our gas here has at least 10% ethanol in it already, so the hoses and lines are already exposed to the stuff. and, being as old as they are, if they're gonna go, they're gonna go no matter what is pressurized inside of it.
but, as i said, it's all moot until i get the BQ trans rebuilt so i can actually play with the car again. as it is now, it's just a cruiser..
FWIW,
There is an internet site that will let you search for stations selling E85 based on your zip code.
National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition
Conrad
There is an internet site that will let you search for stations selling E85 based on your zip code.
National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition
Conrad
Bigger Injectors, a bigger fuel pump, different lines, a different tank...
all to run E85??? It IS an interesting topic, but doesnt make any logical or financial sense to do.
Its like spending $5,000 extra for the hyrbid... you dont save enough on gas to justify the initial expense unless you use it for 10 years...
Hell, they said you will NEVER pay off the Toyota Prius in what you save on gas vs. another 4 banger car in their line up.
Me: Im getting an alky kit next year. DONE.
Just my opinion on the whole thing.
all to run E85??? It IS an interesting topic, but doesnt make any logical or financial sense to do.
Its like spending $5,000 extra for the hyrbid... you dont save enough on gas to justify the initial expense unless you use it for 10 years...
Hell, they said you will NEVER pay off the Toyota Prius in what you save on gas vs. another 4 banger car in their line up.
Me: Im getting an alky kit next year. DONE.
Just my opinion on the whole thing.
Like others have said, I think that it can be used in a mix effectively. A 50/50 mix of E85 and 91 should yeild approx 97-98 octane which would be a huge leap over straight 91. With that mix I think that a simple chip change or some translator adjusments could make up for the needed fueling, provided that your injectors are up to it. Thats what I am after.
Sorry for not posting in a while been busy with work. I was able to take the car out so far all I really have done to tunning wise is ad add 10% to my mainscale and car runs well at 20lbs of boost in fact so well it broke the trans. I have not done any datalogging I have just ran it in closedloop so far, I plan on running it open loop with the pt tracking.
It's great that some of you guys are testing the E85 but just a fair warning...be careful on the tune because otherwise you'll be right behind me getting a new motor built by Dan at DLS! When running E85, you NEED to make sure you are adding enough fuel delivery. I would NOT try any of this on a stock computer!!! If you have a Translator Pro or even better, a FAST or BS3, have at it. A stock computer alone will not be able to add enough fuel. I'm going to be testing this stuff next spring once I get my car back together. I'll definitely have the upgraded fuel system for it. I'm gonna talk to Dan and see if he has any suggestions as far as the motor build goes when preparing to run this stuff.
It can be done with a stock computer , chip and injectors. However you have to use a 50/50 mix or so. Having said that understand that I have a Translator so I can trim the fueling curver somewhat. I've run hundreds of miles with this stuff and I like what I see and feel from the car. Even with an incorrect fueling map, the part throttle driveability, idle is better. I don't have to press the gas as much going up hills, etc. I can roll into the throttle and pitch the car sideways from 40 mph. never been able to that before even with the Propane injection turned on.
I know what some will say, don't even start it... because I'm running a fuel pressure gauge on the hood, knock gauge in the car and my Directscan on all the time. I'm not being foolish about this. This is a test and shouldn't be done without any of those tools I just mentioned.
There are a few people that I've talked to, one not on this board that was running 25 lbs boost 25-26 deg timing with E-85 in a Turbo Buick. No other power adders. all that with only 105 octane, but the cooling effect and slow burning Of E-85 is the key. I have found that you can really lean out the cruise fuel with E-85 and not run into any problems. In fact other Turbo cars ( EVO, WRX, even GTPs ) have been able to tune cruise mode well enough to get back any loss of gas mileage due to the decreased amount of BTUs available in E85.
As far as motor builds go. N/A motors really like E-85 at about 14.1 - 15.1 compression. That seems to be the magic number. This takes advantage of the E-85, produces more power than pump gas and the fuel mileage would be better in most cases than 93. Yes to take full advantage of E-85 a different motor build is in order when it comes to N/A engines. In regards to our motors maybe a lil high compression to improve driveability in part throttle applications. Not sure, but with the right fueling you could really turn the wick up in our motors.
Eric @ TT and I are working on chip for my 83s and I'll pop those in the car and go for kill mode
, with 100% E85 Its my understanding that I will have to use a hotter spark plug as well.My final goal is to run 100% E-85, with a newly updated ME-R setup with a wideband and then add the METH on and top see if I can find the sweet spot. Razor doesn;t seem to think there will be any problems.
I didn't realize you are suppose to run a hotter spark plug, were did you get info. on the spark plugs. Right now I'm using the t-pro (WB) and just finally did a little bit of tunning last night with the help of a fellow board member (Rick) so far I'm really impressed with the e85 I dont now why more people are not going this route. Just ask Rick87GN what he thought.
The hotter spark plugs are something to play with, but come to find out it is not necessary. Plenty of E-85 cars running stock plugs and the like.
Yes E-85 is the what TurboBuick people have been looking for. they just don't know it yet
. E-85 when tuned right will eclipse race gas numbers or alky injection numbers easily. ALSO you can hotlap your car and run consistent numbers...sorry race gas and alky injection people :biggrin: Keep tuning you will be impressed. You might find that running a lil richer will be the ticket. E-85 has it peak torque when running richer than a gas tune, you have a WB so you should see the sweet spot. Glad someone else is playing with it. Keep us updated
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