Maybe it's worse for them because all you mentioned are huge $$$$$. Just about everyone on here wants to run 9's on 93 octane, wants the engine to last forever, and they want it cheap. Well sorry to say to those you're in the wrong hobby.
Why is it so difficult to build these motors right?
- Thread starter BARRACUDA1968
- Start date
m233roller
Banned
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2002
Right on Brian and besides GM NEVER imagined we were going to start trying to run 5 - 6- 7 - 8 hundred horse power threw these wimpy ass Jeep engines.
YUP built and TUNED right they seem to take it pretty well. As with anything you get to the point of over taxing the design !!
YUP built and TUNED right they seem to take it pretty well. As with anything you get to the point of over taxing the design !!
Yes these engines were never designed to be over 400hp. They are very durable at that level. Everyone mentions clearances and oil pump issues but the factory setup has proven adequate time and time again. If they knew what they were looking at and copied the factory clearances success would be much better. I've got several stock short blocks with various run time and is be more confident running those than a lot of "rebuilt" engines. I've also got a few stock shortblocks I put new rings and bearings in and maintained factory clesrance on the bottom end and guess what? They work just fine. To many trying to reinvent the wheel. I've seen pistons installed backward, wide rod bearings used that needed chamfering, oil pumps wasted, new shitty Chinese covers used on otherwise ok engines, a myriad of valvetrain issues including pushrod interference with heads, pushrods hitting rockers, wrong fasteners retaining rocker shafts, different thickness and type head gaskets on the same engine, running in coil bind, spring pressures all over the place, fresh engine with original wasted cam bearings, wrong dipstick, rtv all over the oil pickup, foreign object in oil pan, etc. these are just some things I've seen with the engines! One could imaging the other BS that is found throughout the car from wiring catastrophes to rears with t-shirts thrown in. Yup. Someone put a t shirt into a rear because someone told him it would be posi after doing so. Then someone figures out that the factory stuff isn't so bad and they go right back to it after some guru built their bad ass boat anchor.Right on Brian and besides GM NEVER imagined we were going to start trying to run 5 - 6- 7 - 8 hundred horse power threw these wimpy ass Jeep engines.
YUP built and TUNED right they seem to take it pretty well. As with anything you get to the point of over taxing the design !!
BARRACUDA1968
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 4, 2011
So it seems that if you follow the specs and use good engine building ethics a reliable foundation can be had.
Then use parts that meet or exceed the intended use.
TUNE the car properly, maintain a good tune and maintenance program. I have SM and PL now so I should be able to work my way to a healthy situation. I also installed a WB that I can monitor much easier than trying to keep and eye on the SM.
My engine came apart because of a couple reasons that are obvious. Chain tensioner on a roller chain and severe detonation. Bad engine work and bad tune. My motor never had a chance from day one. I did not build it nor did I own the car when it was built. It don't think it was because the owner at the time was skimping due to the Champion heads, intake, larger turbo and all the machine work that went in to the build. They tried to build a matching combo. I have the build sheet. It was a bad decision to use a tensioner. This was in 2004 so maybe it wasn't a common known mistake back then?
As far as the tune goes who knows what this motor went through? I know it was under high boost without proper fueling, it's in a thread on this board way back in 2006 before alky was installed. There were no signs of a problem when I bought it but the damage was done and it took a summer of spirited driving to discover it. I saw it coming as my oil pressure kept creeping lower and lower but low oil pressure ranges seem to be common on this board so I didn't get too concerned but I knew something wasn't right.
Then use parts that meet or exceed the intended use.
TUNE the car properly, maintain a good tune and maintenance program. I have SM and PL now so I should be able to work my way to a healthy situation. I also installed a WB that I can monitor much easier than trying to keep and eye on the SM.
My engine came apart because of a couple reasons that are obvious. Chain tensioner on a roller chain and severe detonation. Bad engine work and bad tune. My motor never had a chance from day one. I did not build it nor did I own the car when it was built. It don't think it was because the owner at the time was skimping due to the Champion heads, intake, larger turbo and all the machine work that went in to the build. They tried to build a matching combo. I have the build sheet. It was a bad decision to use a tensioner. This was in 2004 so maybe it wasn't a common known mistake back then?
As far as the tune goes who knows what this motor went through? I know it was under high boost without proper fueling, it's in a thread on this board way back in 2006 before alky was installed. There were no signs of a problem when I bought it but the damage was done and it took a summer of spirited driving to discover it. I saw it coming as my oil pressure kept creeping lower and lower but low oil pressure ranges seem to be common on this board so I didn't get too concerned but I knew something wasn't right.
Good thread Brett. The key seems to be, as mentioned, just get it to factory spec, tight tolerances, and use good hardware. You've experienced how a $5 mistake ruined an otherwise great build. Those details are what Joe Schmo builder end up missing.
Matt
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Matt
Posted from the TurboBuick.Com mobile app
jhanson1750
just a 10th quicker
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2005
Just as a note. I used a reputable engine shop locally and just spoke with them about what clearances I wanted. They had no problem with the paperwork that I provided with all the factory clearances. One thing I did was to have them not assemble it as I double checked everything and assembled it myself. I put that motor through hell and the bottom end lasted a long time. It's currently apart as I ended up cracking the crank @ 30psi but I don't blame anyone but myself on that. I would use a buick expert if there was one close enough. Jon Hanson.
- Joined
- May 27, 2010
Find an honest machine shop and you will not have issues IMO. Thing that kills me is after someone dumps all this money to rebuild their motor and slap all the old crap injector wire harness on, keep the same torque converter on after dropping almost a G on a turbo, using a beat up timing cover, a fuel pump they think is fine that someone else supposedly put in, slap some cracked headers back on. I can keep on going. It's like seeing a car for sale and they say the motor has been rebuilt after a timing chain replacement!!
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
Please do not take my comments personally but you are off-base with your statements about the oiling system sucks as well as clearances?
You are correct as there is "not a lot of room for error", and this is true for any engine build.
No matter if it is a Chevy, Ford or any make, expertise and knowledge is gained by actual experience which includes feedback from field testing and use. There is NO substitute for this.
My records show we have built over 700 Buick turbo V-6 engines from stock to 7 sec. GN's and have learned the hard way what NOT to do as well as the BEST methods and procedures to have the engine perform as ordered, and still be reliable.
We have no "secret" formula, but what methods and procedures we have learned over the years gives us an edge on those still learning.
I am not saying we are the "best", but we have worked with other competent engine builders around the country, and shared information with them as well. We have "fixed" and rebuilt many engine shipped to us after the customer got fed up with his local builder costing them lots of grief and $$$$ for their expensive build.
Just like the GN transmission, only a few builders around the country really have knowledge and experience to build one that will do the job and be reliable for lots of use, so why would someone just pick an unknown engine builder instead of an experienced with GN engines?
At least check with GN customers, not just take the shop's word, that have actually had work done by a shop to verify how well it turned out before you spend your $$$$ there.
I really think the biggest problem is most machine shops really don't know what the power potential these engines are capable of making.
So they don't really pay attention to the small details like clearances in bearing and oil system.
All these things have to be looked at in every other hi performance engine.
It's just a buick v6 how.much power could it really make................
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So they don't really pay attention to the small details like clearances in bearing and oil system.
All these things have to be looked at in every other hi performance engine.
It's just a buick v6 how.much power could it really make................
Posted from the TurboBuick.Com mobile app
Yeah it could be worse for them, probably is as browsing other car forums shows me everybody's got their problems. I guess my point was that the knowledge and talent to fix seemingly more complicated engines in todays cars is in every city and basically run of the mill -pardon the pun.-
Yup. I was in disagreement with a machine shop last week about the valve guide material I should be using on my gn1 heads. Well the 1200hp v8 used bronze ex guides so they will definitively be ok in your engine. I'm like they've definitely failed in engines making less power than I am and 150hp per hole is weak for a v8. just about every one of these I put together makes at least 125hp per cylinder and I'm at the mercy of 30 year old stuff to work around. I can't just go order a new block and start bolting stuff on or in. I've learned you have to tell people what to do and then check their work. The person assembling is responsible for catching their f ups
I'd feel comfortable saying that there is no "voodoo" involved with these motors. Most of the mistakes you can make on a GN would have been a mistake on a Chevy, Ford, or Chrysler.
Pay attention to detail on the oil pump. Keep the bearings within factory spec. Gap the rings properly. It's pretty basic stuff. I'm just "some guy" in a garage and put mine together and its been together for 5 years and a proven low 10 second car and I didn't do anything exotic other than follow simple directions.
Pay attention to detail on the oil pump. Keep the bearings within factory spec. Gap the rings properly. It's pretty basic stuff. I'm just "some guy" in a garage and put mine together and its been together for 5 years and a proven low 10 second car and I didn't do anything exotic other than follow simple directions.
ITSAV6
It's my Granny's car!
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2001
That's why I built mine myself. Good machine work and checked clearances as I put it together. Even did setup on my roller cam. And still had to pull it back out. Machinist did install the crank so he could check endplay and everything (did billet caps). After 20 min run time I could hear a tick when I slid under looking for an oil drip. The thrust surface had been turned .010 and bearing was std. .014 endplay. I didn't check behind him and it almost got me. Not rocket science but attention to detail and set clearances and double check.
There isn't any magic in the machining but there are tolerances. I had a dirt track engine guy who built stage 2's rebuild my motors. I took a fully assembled stage 2 and a 109 to him and the only true advice given to me to tell him was to make the crank tighter than normal. None of that sbc loose crap, that's it. I had 1200 in the rebuild on the ASA motor. My 109 had 750 in the rebuild . I put the heads back on both motors. Standard Felpro gaskets. That same builder has built an off center 4.1 M&A headed motor for a board member that I used a mentor when building my motors. I bet if he posted the total cost of his project vs. performance level achieved the phone would be ringing off the hook. His project was dropped off in pieces and fully assembled, the block was virgin. My 109 has been living after that rebuild for 9+ years and I swear there are no exotic parts other than 72 lb injectors , ESP cam and front mount , direct scan and a Hooker 2 piece down pipe. The big TE 69 has pushed the motor into the 6.40s in the 1/8. 1999 at it's finest.My twin car ran in the low 5's before the car was totaled. Chassis issues. My only true goal with my 109 motor was to run high 6's in the 1/8. I didn't care to rack up 30,000+ miles or for my car to be thrown into daily driver status but it did when the wife's car had broken down. That motor has served me well on the track and street. I did drop a prushrod in the motor and have broken rocker arms twice. There are many, more than will admit, that have not put more miles on their car for various rebuild reasons. They too have heard and called around to ask rebuild costs and had the fear put into them. My engine guy is still around but his reliability factor is in the negatives. He does not own shop equipment anymore but uses the equipment of the company that he works for. I would take a 109 to him again, but I don't have time to baby sit my parts this time or chase him around the city to see where he's working now. The physical parts reliability factor has went up 20 fold. New cranks and rods, billet this and that, FAST this, cosmetic, dual ball bearings - water cooled. If the price is right take a chance on your local guys but make sure they understand your specs and you should be fine, and have your goals in mind and build accordingly. Will you be the top contender in TSM, I doubt it, there are some tricks of the trade that has been picked up along the way, and those tricks are very $$$$$. Sorry for the rant and long post, I am sure that it sounds like a broken record but everyone has their own personal experiences, live, learn and enjoy life.
These engines are not hard to build, they're actually very easy.....
....the part where you get into trouble is when you don't know NOT to do something. Things like tapping the front galley plugs to make them better.... and blocking off the oil flow to the engine (while the pressure gauge reads awesome). Not setting the thrust bearing CORRECTLY so that BOTH halves are on the same plane and equally loaded at all times. (miss this step on a 305 Chevy and you'll never know it)...
Buying an aftermarket oil pump, slapping it into a timing cover is another good way to get bit in the ass. If you don't notice the pump is locked up, it's not going to run for long after the pump "self clearances".
On a SBC if the main journals are perfectly round but .002" non-concentric, you'll never notice... on a Buick V6 with <.002" clearance you CAN'T get an consistent even tapered hydrodynamic wedge with the journals that far out.
Putting a tentioner with a dogboned link timing chain will have you digging out the engine hoist.
If running a flat tappet cam ALL the nuances HAVE to be tiptoed around (and you will not see a 100% success ratio). The cam grinder has to know how to deal with a bad print on 3E that's been a part of our blocks since day one. Softer cam blanks, lack of hard feet on the lifters, de-nutted oil, the WRONG valvespings, and improper pushrod length are a recipe for disaster.
Moral of the story, as long as you know ALL the nuances AND have the ability to recognize something odd before it gets terminal, you're fine.. almost.
....the part where you get into trouble is when you don't know NOT to do something. Things like tapping the front galley plugs to make them better.... and blocking off the oil flow to the engine (while the pressure gauge reads awesome). Not setting the thrust bearing CORRECTLY so that BOTH halves are on the same plane and equally loaded at all times. (miss this step on a 305 Chevy and you'll never know it)...
Buying an aftermarket oil pump, slapping it into a timing cover is another good way to get bit in the ass. If you don't notice the pump is locked up, it's not going to run for long after the pump "self clearances".
On a SBC if the main journals are perfectly round but .002" non-concentric, you'll never notice... on a Buick V6 with <.002" clearance you CAN'T get an consistent even tapered hydrodynamic wedge with the journals that far out.
Putting a tentioner with a dogboned link timing chain will have you digging out the engine hoist.
If running a flat tappet cam ALL the nuances HAVE to be tiptoed around (and you will not see a 100% success ratio). The cam grinder has to know how to deal with a bad print on 3E that's been a part of our blocks since day one. Softer cam blanks, lack of hard feet on the lifters, de-nutted oil, the WRONG valvespings, and improper pushrod length are a recipe for disaster.
Moral of the story, as long as you know ALL the nuances AND have the ability to recognize something odd before it gets terminal, you're fine.. almost.
The #3 lifter bore for the exhaust is in the wrong place. It's not offset enough to help the lifter spin effectively. When Buick figured it out, they didn't care to fix it.
On a roller it's doesn't matter, but it seems the cam grinders (that know what their doing) make the taper on that lobe 'wrong' to increase the odds of not going flat a little.
On a roller it's doesn't matter, but it seems the cam grinders (that know what their doing) make the taper on that lobe 'wrong' to increase the odds of not going flat a little.
RmvBfrFlght
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2007
{Earl beat me to the keyboard}
#3 exhaust lobe, the lifter bore is offset...
RemoveBeforeFlight
#3 exhaust lobe, the lifter bore is offset...
RemoveBeforeFlight
