Why is it so difficult to build these motors right?

[BARRACUDA1968]

I have my motor out and need to make a decision as to what I'm going to do. 109 or 109 stroker.

I have been reading a lot of threads on engine builds and a common theme seems to be find someone who has successfully built one of these engines.

What makes this engine harder to build and live than any other engine per say? I have a great engine builder where I live but turbo buicks are just not common around here.

Just curious to what the ins and outs are?

 

[notacarlo]

Attention to tolerances. Its is (believe it or not) a very precisely put together engine.

currently cutting it the F loose

 

[BARRACUDA1968]

Thanks for the response.

Assuming a competent engine builder does the work and sets the bearing tolerances properly what else would a good builder do?

 

[Wahoo]

I don't get it either, so every other engine people just slap together but these turbo buicks they have to pay attention!

 

[Superrmario]

What I gathered is it isn't that you need a good Buick guy, but you need someone that is attentive to detail when building the engine and willing to do research on building one if he has never done one before.

I personally went with someone that has a proven track record of building these engines because he was avaliable to do my build.

Hundreds of thousands of Chevy and Ford small blocks and big blocks are around and have been built. Most builders could build one with their eyes closed. How many 109 engines are around, and how many have been rebuilt? I would guess a fraction of the amount.

It comes down to how much they know about the 109 engine and the quirks and specific touches the need to finish it.



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[Wahoo]

Well what are the quirks?

They have mostly the same parts that every other engine has.

 

[V6sleeper]

What i learned after a few builds is that the high 11's are our friends...

 

[DCVING 6]

I think one big problem is a lot of people don't invest in having a professional tune it when it's done.

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[v6turbo87]

Quite frankly the Buick oiling system sucks! Because of it you need to run very tight bearing clearances. Also need to pay very close attention assembling the oil pump it needs to be blue printed too. Front cover can be reworked as well as other oil passages to improve the overall oiling system. Little things like knowing to throw away the timing chain tensioner if you go to a roller chain. knowing to replace the camshaft button with a roller bearing type button. Not to mention its a v6 performance engine. There are not as many main caps everything is smaller and lighter so it needs to be put together right as is not a lot of room for error.

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[BARRACUDA1968]

I guess the quirks is what I was after.

I trust the guy's who will be doing the work and I know they did one other TB in the past. They both are very talented and don't do anything half a$$.

Just thought I would try and get some insight here mainly for my understanding and I do agree that bad tunes are probably a lot of the issues.

 

[v6turbo87]

But the best tune won't fix a poorly put together engine.

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[BARRACUDA1968]

Quite frankly the Buick oiling system sucks! Because of it you need to run very tight bearing clearances. Also need to pay very close attention assembling the oil pump it needs to be blue printed too. Front cover can be reworked as well as other oil passages to improve the overall oiling system. Little things like knowing to throw away the timing chain tensioner if you go to a roller chain. knowing to replace the camshaft button with a roller bearing type button. Not to mention its a v6 performance engine. There are not as many main caps everything is smaller and lighter so it needs to be put together right as is not a lot of room for error.

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This is what I was looking for. My engine had the roller chain and a tensioner. Now I have a roller chain and half a tensioner, plus the bonus of a complete rebuild and behind door #1 a new crank rods and pistons and I might as well take door #2 with a set off roller rockers to go with my new roller cam.

All could be because of a $5 tensioner. And yes that is what they charged for the tensioner on the build sheet. $5!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[TT/Ameasap]

Sorry to hear you have to build the "built"motor Brett. I hope you hang in there and you WILL have a really fast GN. With that said, Having had several built motors and the current being a stroker, I would go stroker again in a heartbeat. I would also have someone that knows these motors to build it. Seen way too many built motors fail under little to no stress. Get it built right the first time and enjoy a quick GN longer. I believe DLS is in IN. and Weber is in OH. There's more, but you can search the site for a good builder.
Need any help just text me.

 

[BARRACUDA1968]

Thanks for the information and I'll give you a call sometime and pick your brain. Right now I need to finish the 474 stroker for the Trans Am but in the mean time I'll do my homework for the GN.

 

[Mr.Spool]

rpe is in conn and definetly worth a call.most builders will not give there trade secrets away.

 

[Superrmario]

rpe is in conn and definetly worth a call.most builders will not give there trade secrets away.

I don't think I can agree more...

When I go and visit the guy that's building my engine I ask questions. Not because I want to grill him, but because I want to learn. While he does give me some information, some questions are topic changers really quick. LoL

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[BARRACUDA1968]

I know there are some great TB builders around the country but I plan to have mine done locally. I trust them and shipping my motor out is not in the budget. Hell this whole deal is not in the budget but it is what it is.

If the build requires attention to detail and precision my guy's have that covered. The shop owner has done some pretty trick stuff over the years and his boy which is my age is just as good.

I think this thread will be good information for a lot of guys and gals to read and learn what makes these motors tick.

 

[JDSfastGN]

Machine work is machine work imo. If your shop does other brand motors for high performance cars successfully, they can build yours. If they aren't a turbobuick specialist they need to be willing to listen and go with the specs and tolerances that you have done the research on. If the builder won't build to your desired specs then find another. There is no magic imo and its overstated here. I usually install the heads myself as well as valvetrain for piece of mind and cost savings. I also setup my oil pump myself so that I know its clearanced correctly.

 

[kidglok]

In this case, I would stick to a forged crank with stock caps...as this would require the least amount of machine work to the block. Boring/honing and balancing a rotating assembly is more general than doing a line bore and fitting billet caps to a Buick block. For that i would only trust a reputable Buick shop with a lot of experience on these engines. The same goes for a girdle.

If you have a standard 109 block with the stock caps you shouldn't need a line bore...and if you stick with a stock stroke you won't have to clearance the block for the rods. There are some great deals from our vendors on forged rotating assembly's that won't require anything more than a balance in most cases. Combine that with a good head/cam/valve train combo and you have a foundation to make some great power while keeping it simple and minimizing your out of pocket expense.

 

[3-5.0]

It is interesting and while I don't doubt the quirks that need attention on these motors I find it dismaying that with all the imports, exotics -from twin turbo 4 bangers to new Hemi's to BMW, Jaguars , turbo diesels who knows what etc. etc. that mechanics in every city in North America gotta fix, replace and keep running why these are such a mystery, maybe its just a bad design to keep running fast. Hell the engine in my old 2001 Mazda looked more complicated...which I never touched.