What is the differents between ISAC & Alkycontrol System?

[GNONYX]

Now let first said I don't want to start any feud of the following since I know many GN owners might uses both of the following system:

Can anyone tell me the different between the ISAC (Injection Systems Alcohol Controller), and AlkyControl System.

I did notice the ISAC has a DataLogger input in front of the controller, but I don't know if this is the same Data Logger information that gets connected to the ECM.

I'm doing my homework for future inquiry of between both system. Thanks

 

[Razor]

One issue is if you look at the system.. meaning tank, lines, pump, fittings, filters, nozzle, wiring/termination, the way it lays out in the car.

The other issue is if you compare the "just" the controllers. The ISAC has more bells and whistles, mine is simpler in nature. It is my belief that the speed of the pump is the slowest part of the system, and trying to make quick abrupt changes doesnt always mean a change in volume. They both are progressive.

I've always kept the keep it simple mentallity. Maybe good, maybe not. There are quite a few fast cars running my setup. 8 years as of March 11 doing the same thing.. 3500 or so Buick kits sold.. i've discovered what works for me and my customers.

I have customers who have bought my system and tied it in with the ISAC. Just depends on how personally involved you want to get with a laptop to figure your situation and how much you want to spend.

Either way, you should be fine.

 

[GNONYX]

Hi,
Thanks for info, and you're right keeping thing simple is always the way to go. We all don't want to spend extra on something that you might not use, but then again, down the road one ever knows if you are going to need that option, and then spend more to obtain the option. I have read many GN owners of having your system, more pros then cons. Like I say, I have some homework to do, and see how complex is ISAC system is.
I do have one question for you, I have digital dash displacement; what system would I need from your system?

Thanks again, Julio

 

[Razor]

The dash doesnt change the kit. The digital dash creates extra wiring to supply power and ground to the 3 bar map sensor. No biggie..

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/alcohol-nitrous-propane-tech/211821-3-bar-map-digital-dash.html

Same kit whether you have an analog, digital, GNX style/type, etc.. Actually on my system the only thing is adding another nozzle when the power goes up. Typically in the mid 10's is when this is needed.

In the event you have a need to run a 3 bar on the car, or any other MAP sensor.. you would need to wire it anyways.

 

[GNONYX]

Thanks for the extra info on the 3 bar map w/digital dash gain, now I can do alot of reading on your system. Thank You, Julio

 

[JayC]

The ISAC is not progressive. It is a non linear system. Like an engine management system (Tho not as elaborate by any means), the user has full control over alcohol delivery. You can add or take away alcohol at any point through the curve.

The unit does configure as a progressive system in that it allows you to set your activation RPM, TPS and boost levels and your per PSI duty cycle rise. After that, you have a series or sliders that allow you to adjust the curve +/- 25%.

As far as other things:

- The ISAC supports dual pumps out of the box. You can run the two pumps staged or in parallel.

- The ISAC has a built in data logger. It will log the entire operation of whatever system you hook it up to allow for easier tuning.

- In the same vein, the ISAC has a customizable dashboard for real time monitoring of engine operation.

- The ISAC has closed loop alcohol delivery when paired with a compatible wideband.

- The ISAC has a built in closed loop boost controller. Single or dual solenoid operation with various ways of controlling the boost. The boost controller also includes launch boost and provisions for gear based boost control.

- When using the boost controller, the ISAC has several engine failsafes in case the system malfunctions. If your A/F ratio goes over a set number, the ISAC drops the boost. It can also be used with a simple pressure switch on the pump head or it can be used in what I think is the best method, utilizing the IFS-20 Flow Monitor that Labonte Motorsports sells. This measure the flow of the system and if the flow drops, the ISAC will dump all the boost down to your wastegate spring pressure. I personally think measuring flow is a better method of failsafe detection but thats just my opinion. It also works with a low level sensor in the same way. Drops the boost.

- The ISAC is compatible with a large number of pressure sensors which allow the unit to deliver methanol up to 150 PSI. This addition doesnt mean much to the Buick guys but the diesel guys love it.

- The ISAC has two built in window switches that can be utilized for a variety of things such as activating a shift light, nitrous solenoids, etc. They do share a channel with the boost controller tho so if you use both channels for the boost controller, the window switch option is not available. MOST people have used the single solenoid control method, tho.

- The ISAC has a user configurable knob on the front of the unit that can be configured for real time alcohol delivery adjustments, boost adjustments, etc.

- The ISAC can be updated in the field via firmware updates you download from the website. Bug fixes, feature additions, etc.

We never offered a custom kit but instead used the Labonte Motorsports basic kit and added the ISAC to the package. Using the Metco fuel cell that goes in the trunk, you could fab up a pretty impressive system for the Buicks.

We have begun talking to a company about having a custom pump manufactured for us, however. Clean sheet of paper, 100% methanol compatible pump designed for what we're doing with it. Very preliminary at this point but Ill update when I have more information to share.

 

[SGRIM]

Bump:biggrin:

 

[Quiky One]

I've yet to see an ISAC car go faster then an alkycontrol system.

I have played with the software and it seems to be a headache....

Jason

 

[JayC]

I've yet to see an ISAC car go faster then an alkycontrol system.

I have played with the software and it seems to be a headache....

Jason

I dont know how fast people have gone with ISACs. I know of a local car that I set up that went low 10s on pump gas.

As for being complicated, well, its not for everyone. Fortunately there are simpler solutions on the market for people that dont want the level of control an ISAC offers. Different strokes and all that.

 

[SGRIM]

You really can't say that one kit is faster than another kit... It would amount to the tune and what you can do with the kit to make your car faster. Our kit just gives you so much opportunity to adjust so many different parameters that you should be able to control things better...

 

[Quiky One]

Here is how I think about it...I have a $3000 computer system that is bank to bank. I have a $600 alky system. Which one is more suited to tune? duhhh

The ECM is much more programmable then ANY alky system. I will spray the methanol andfine tune with the computer.

Don't wanna step on any toes. I am out.

Jason

 

[SGRIM]

Here is how I think about it...I have a $3000 computer system that is bank to bank. I have a $600 alky system. Which one is more suited to tune? duhhh

The ECM is much more programmable then ANY alky system. I will spray the methanol andfine tune with the computer.

Don't wanna step on any toes. I am out.

Jason

What is the pissyness about? Jason I hope you really don't have 3K in a bank to bank system....

Just out of curiosity did you read what all this can do? No one said it was to replace a bank to bank or aftermarket ecm...


This system can be installed on a other wise stock car and for what $200 bucks more you get all these additional features with the addition of a boost controller that rivals those that cost $400 up by themselves. Can your bank to bank do that?

Again, not trying to make anyone mad so I don't get the "I'm out" deal

 

[Quiky One]

What is the pissyness about? Jason I hope you really don't have 3K in a bank to bank system....

Just out of curiosity did you read what all this can do? No one said it was to replace a bank to bank or aftermarket ecm...


This system can be installed on a other wise stock car and for what $200 bucks more you get all these additional features with the addition of a boost controller that rivals those that cost $400 up by themselves. Can your bank to bank do that?

Again, not trying to make anyone mad so I don't get the "I'm out" deal

No pissyness, but this is your board and I don't wanna be put on the bad list.

No, I don't have $3000 in a buick computer, but I have $3000 in another cars computer system that is wicked cool.

And yes, my other computer can control boost.

Jason

 

[GNONYX]

Now let first said I don't want to start any feud of the following since I know many GN owners might uses both of the following system:

Can anyone tell me the different between the ISAC (Injection Systems Alcohol Controller), and AlkyControl System.

As I mention before, I posted this only to find out from both users opinions. I don't have any of this type of system install, but from reading many threads it's a must have if I intent to make more boost. My car is mostly street driven, and some day want to run in the track. Like everyone, after the run I want to able to drive back home.

I don't care if you're the originator of this great site, or subscriber to obtain and give some great information. The main thing we are all Buick family, and we respectfully give our own opinions on the subject at have.

One thing I would like to make a request, when a member post about either systems, please explain your system, as this will help me find the correct application for my car. Thanks, Julio

 

[Quiky One]

Now let first said I don't want to start any feud of the following since I know many GN owners might uses both of the following system:

Can anyone tell me the different between the ISAC (Injection Systems Alcohol Controller), and AlkyControl System.

As I mention before, I posted this only to find out from both users opinions. I don't have any of this type of system install, but from reading many threads it's a must have if I intent to make more boost. My car is mostly street driven, and some day want to run in the track. Like everyone, after the run I want to able to drive back home.

I don't care if you're the originator of this great site, or subscriber to obtain and give some great information. The main thing we are all Buick family, and we respectfully give our own opinions on the subject at have.

One thing I would like to make a request, when a member post about either systems, please explain your system, as this will help me find the correct application for my car. Thanks, Julio

Alky control comes as a kit. Alky control has a turnon point (PSI set), a gain knob (how fast the alky ramps up), and a power knob. That is it.

ISAC to my knowledge, does not come as kit. You must find your own pump, bottle, and lines. The ISAC is very complex and very adjustable. It can act as a boost controller as well. Now to get it to act as a boost controller you have to have some kind of solenoid setup. This is where Bob Bailey can answer it since he built it.

If you want tinker with a kit and have fun tuning it, get the ISAC. It is a great controller made by a great guy. I run his products too.

If you want a kit that can install in one day, works out of the box, and will take you up to 1300HP, alkycontrol is there for ya.

And yes, I run alkycontrol. Take it for what it is worth.

 

[Razor]

Alky control comes as a kit. Alky control has a turnon point (PSI set), a gain knob (how fast the alky ramps up), and a power knob. That is it.

Actually three controls. A knob you set when the kit turns on(activates), a knob you can set the preliminary ramp(Initial), and a knob you can turn to change the slope(Gain). Most just mess with the slope(gain) adjustment as it allows for simple on the fly adjustments to the kit. meaning your at 22 PSI and in high gear see a little knock.. turn the Gain up.. it increases drive to the pump=more alcohol.. done. There is a way to shut it off(on/off switch) and a way to test the system(test button=low pressure testing)

Being in the electronics field since 1983, having help design/worked on(serviced), R&D, etc over the years i've used that in the design of my controller. I have made more complex units that I have tested, it didnt add any performance to my own application. Example the reduction input(purple wire) used for reducing output when on a transbrake.. that was put in there due to research.

The only time I saw a need for a "fancy" controller was a customer that had a 5 speed import turbo charged engine that was being road raced. And his issues where at low rpm's like 2500 in lower gears. Its that the kit is run on SD(speed density) and has that limitation. This again is with a manual transmission. His fix was to get the unit from FJO that used a high speed solenoid valve to meter the amount of alcohol injected... but that led to solenoid issues and pump issues. The perfect control system would use a fuel injector on a stand alone fuel system. The costs to fab this get out of hand, as well install/setup/tune(map out), etc. And have parts like fuel pump/injectors/filters/tanks/ etc that will live in a harsh liquid. In the end.. a system like this wont produce more power. Just cleans up afr issues where the load varies.

On a car with an automatic transmission and turbo.. its in my opinion a non issue. Here's why. When you race the engine it is done on a very narrow rpm windown. Example in 1/2/3rd gear you rev to 5500 shift and back to 4900.. back to 5500.. then to 4900.. your racing the motor in a 600 rpm window. The amount you spray is not going to make a difference in that short of window. This was the main arguement against controllers back in the day.. once you figured how much was needed volume wise at boost.. that amount didnt matter if it came through a controller/hobbs switch/etc. meaning the controller didnt make any more power at a given boost level once the volume issue was figured out. If you needed .5 ounces per second at 22 psi boost from 4900 to 5500 rpm's... didnt matter how it got there. The controller only facilitated adjusting that amount. Where it did make a difference was when the boost spiked or psi level(up/down) as the controller could now vary an amount shot it.

The only other neat thing about a controller it allowed the pressure to roll on.. instead of "hit" the motor.. so it made the transition into alcohol smooth.

The kits made the install simple. The controllers I sell are curved by me when they go out, this way it makes life easy once the system is installed. The curving comes from tuning on hundreds of these cars with the system in place. As does the support on it from having now installed over 350 Buick kits the last 8 years.

Can I complicate the controller and add more bells and whistles.. absolutely.. Do I want to .. no.. what is currently being done is now been tested on 3000+ Buick GN's and no complaints. I'm leaving well enough alone. Call me stubborn

All the above talk about exactness of how much is sprayed and etc.. your still dealing with a car that uses a computer now 26 years old, runs on a MAF that pegs out at 14 PSI boost, and has limitations strewn throughout. Such that chip makers are constantly adding new patches to correct problems.

The alcohol is fine the way its done.. especially when you have plenty of other things to deal with.

Peace

 

[GNONYX]

Actually three controls. A knob you set when the kit turns on(activates), a knob you can set the preliminary ramp(Initial), and a knob you can turn to change the slope(Gain). Most just mess with the slope(gain) adjustment as it allows for simple on the fly adjustments to the kit. meaning your at 22 PSI and in high gear see a little knock.. turn the Gain up.. it increases drive to the pump=more alcohol.. done. There is a way to shut it off(on/off switch) and a way to test the system(test button=low pressure testing)

Being in the electronics field since 1983, having help design/worked on(serviced), R&D, etc over the years I've used that in the design of my controller. I have made more complex units that I have tested, it didn't add any performance to my own application. Example the reduction input(purple wire) used for reducing output when on a transbrake.. that was put in there due to research.

The only time I saw a need for a "fancy" controller was a customer that had a 5 speed import turbo charged engine that was being road raced. And his issues where at low rpm's like 2500 in lower gears. Its that the kit is run on SD(speed density) and has that limitation. This again is with a manual transmission. His fix was to get the unit from FJO that used a high speed solenoid valve to meter the amount of alcohol injected... but that led to solenoid issues and pump issues. The perfect control system would use a fuel injector on a stand alone fuel system. The costs to fab this get out of hand, as well install/setup/tune(map out), etc. And have parts like fuel pump/injectors/filters/tanks/ etc that will live in a harsh liquid. In the end.. a system like this wont produce more power. Just cleans up afr issues where the load varies.

On a car with an automatic transmission and turbo.. its in my opinion a non issue. Here's why. When you race the engine it is done on a very narrow rpm window. Example in 1/2/3rd gear you rev to 5500 shift and back to 4900.. back to 5500.. then to 4900.. your racing the motor in a 600 rpm window. The amount you spray is not going to make a difference in that short of window. This was the main argument against controllers back in the day.. once you figured how much was needed volume wise at boost.. that amount didn't matter if it came through a controller/hobbs switch/etc. meaning the controller didn't make any more power at a given boost level once the volume issue was figured out. If you needed .5 ounces per second at 22 psi boost from 4900 to 5500 rpm's... didn't matter how it got there. The controller only facilitated adjusting that amount. Where it did make a difference was when the boost spiked or psi level(up/down) as the controller could now vary an amount shot it.

The only other neat thing about a controller it allowed the pressure to roll on.. instead of "hit" the motor.. so it made the transition into alcohol smooth.

The kits made the install simple. The controllers I sell are curved by me when they go out, this way it makes life easy once the system is installed. The curving comes from tuning on hundreds of these cars with the system in place. As does the support on it from having now installed over 350 Buick kits the last 8 years.

Can I complicate the controller and add more bells and whistles.. absolutely.. Do I want to .. no.. what is currently being done is now been tested on 3000+ Buick GN's and no complaints. I'm leaving well enough alone. Call me stubborn

All the above talk about exactness of how much is sprayed and etc.. your still dealing with a car that uses a computer now 26 years old, runs on a MAF that pegs out at 14 PSI boost, and has limitations strewn throughout. Such that chip makers are constantly adding new patches to correct problems.

The alcohol is fine the way its done.. especially when you have plenty of other things to deal with.

Peace

Once again Mr. Razor, you have convinced me of your system.
I'm not knocking the ISAC system, and all of the functions and individual parameters it can accomplish. As I stated before I have a simple almost stock engine, and all I want is to achieve a bit more boost without blowing head gaskets, and other future things that I don't know yet.
Thanks again for the information and educated me on your system. Julio

 

[salvageV6]

If that's all you need you don't need a kit either.

Just the DIY system that's been around for decades and about $150 in parts.

Assuming you can hook up simple stuff like relays and hoses.

And to the salesman a straight line isn't much of a curve.

Here's a link to read, if you can't follow this buy a kit.

http://members.cox.net/stevemonroe/AlcoholInjMod.html

 

[GNONYX]

If that's all you need you don't need a kit either.

Just the DIY system that's been around for decades and about $150 in parts.

Assuming you can hook up simple stuff like relays and hoses.

And to the salesman a straight line isn't much of a curve.

Here's a link to read, if you can't follow this buy a kit.

DIY Alcohol Injection System

Thank you Steve for more additional interesting reading materials, and the other aspect of DIY system.

 

[ttypewe4jim]

ISAC is sold as a kit as well.... and fwiw on a street car it comes in major handy to delay the boost coming in to quickly