What am I doing wrong? Why is my car not quicker than it is?

[10SECV6]

What am I doing wrong? I think my car should be quicker than it is with the modifications that have been done to it. I’d like advice from the Buick gurus.

Here’s the scenario. The car is an ’87 T-type with 129K miles on it. It was bone stock when I bought it almost a year ago. It's a light weight car. Solid roof, roll down windows, manual seats, etc. Here’s a write up from when I bought the car: http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/threads/my-turbo-regal-story-so-far.403508/page-2#post-3305097

It is essentially a bolt on car at this point. The motor, cam, heads are just like they left the factory 27 years ago other than stiffer valve springs that I added (not sure of the spring pressure, but they came from Kirban). I’m not sure what if anything has been done to the transmission, but the shifts are firm and quick. The trans is not an issue at this point. The rest of the mods are:

• Precision 5931 turbo
• Alky Control Methanol injection
• Turbo Tweak Alcohol chip
• 60# Injectors
• CAS V4 stretch stock location intercooler
• Kenne Bell throttle body and plenum
• Pypes 2.5” exhaust (no catalytic converter)
• 3” down pipe from Kirban
• RJC racing boost controller
• RJC power plate
• K&N open filter (stock MAF)
• Walbro fuel pump
• PTC 2,800-3,000 stall converter (stalls closer to 4,000 at the track on the brake and a set of slicks)
• Powerlogger & ScanMaster
• 26” ET Drag Bias Ply Tires mounted on stock Turbo Regal turbine wheels (traction is not an issue)

From what I have read, with these modifications, the car should be capable of low 11’s pretty easily. However, it runs 11.9’s and 12.0’s despite the tune being spot on with no knock and the boost in the 26-28psi range and sometimes sneaking closer to 30psi. Sixty foot times are not an issue as they range from 1.65 to 1.70. I’ve attached a Powerlogger file from a ¼ mile pass today and from what I can tell, the car is happy with the tune. There is absolutely no knock, the O2’s seem to be in line with it being an alcohol car, boost is up there, etc. I’m sure I could eek out a little more power with some additional timing, but there is not much left to be had and certainly not a full second worth.

I've been drag racing for 20+ years, so I don't think the issue is me. Also, I weigh 150 pounds, so I'm not slowing the car down much. Today at a nearby track (Kinston Drag Strip in Kinston, NC) with a -200 density altitude, the car ran the following times. As you can likely tell, on the first pass, I got on the brake after the 1/8 mile since the track official told me they were not providing ¼ ET’s.

Why does this car not run quicker than it does? Please take a look at the Powerlogger file attached if you can. If not, a screen shot is below. Is the converter too loose for the stock motor? Is the motor too tired at this point? Am I expecting too much or am I missing something here?

Thanks in advance for the input.

 

[aminga]

What does the trans fluid look like

 

[Jerryl]

Got a buddy of mine with about the same setup, running similar mph.
I am no expert, but i think he needs a tighter converter. 5200 rpm @88mph is too much out if range for a stock cammed motor. (his trans is fine).

Just food for thought.

 

[broke]

short tires

 

[HouTX87]

What times does it run with less boost? Have you tried locking the converter in 3rd gear? I have a similar combo, original trans also. I've run 12.1 @ 113 and 12.1 @ 110 with converter unlocked. Both at 23-24psi boost. This was with my old turbo. My best 60ft yet was a 1.79 on crappy drag radials. Zero boost launch.

 

[Pronto]

Stock elbow on turbo creating too much back pressure? RPMs are out of the cam range.

 

[Jerryl]

Online converter slip calc indicates (5400 rpm / 90 mph / 1:1 / 26” tire)
35.7% slip with 3.42
24.4% slip with 3.73

 

[forcefed3.8's]

Valve springs? Need 28" tires. Are you running a wideband?

 

[10SECV6]

What does the trans fluid look like

Trans fluid looks good. I don't think there are any issues with the trans

Got a buddy of mine with about the same setup, running similar mph.
I am no expert, but i think he needs a tighter converter. 5200 rpm @88mph is too much out if range for a stock cammed motor. (his trans is fine).

Just food for thought.

Yep. I'm pretty sure my converter is not helping matters. It launches good, but lots of slip after that. Basically it never drops below 5,000rpm on the shifts

Stock elbow on turbo creating too much back pressure? RPMs are out of the cam range.

Could be. I have TH downpipe to go on it with a cutout, I just haven't put it on yet. Maybe that's part of the problem. Agreed on the rpms vs. the cam.

Valve springs? Need 28" tires. Are you running a wideband?

The valve springs have recently been replaced with a set ordered from Kirban. No wideband at this point...

 

[Bescurred]

If you put the THDP on make sure you back the boost off some. You'll probably pick up at least a couple of pounds vs the stock elbow

 

[10SECV6]

What times does it run with less boost? Have you tried locking the converter in 3rd gear? I have a similar combo, original trans also. I've run 12.1 @ 113 and 12.1 @ 110 with converter unlocked. Both at 23-24psi boost. This was with my old turbo. My best 60ft yet was a 1.79 on crappy drag radials. Zero boost launch.

It ran a 12.98 at 101 on 19 pounds of boost back when it still had the stock turbo on it and no meth. I haven't tried locking the converter. PTC told me not to lock the converter at wide open throttle since the friction area inside the converter is not sufficient for it to hold up.

 

[KEVINS]

Are you running it through the mufflers or open dump?

 

[Chuck Leeper]

What others have said.......
Also, this is another indicator of a converter issue. "PTC 2,800-3,000 stall converter (stalls closer to 4,000 at the track on a set of slicks)". Jerr's slip calcs are "scary"!
A look at the rpm scan shows low rpm drop on the shifts. Can you post what they are?

 

[V6RACER]

Original timing chain?

Sent from my SCH-L710 using TurboBuick Mobile mobile app

 

[Razor]

Original timing chain?

Sent from my SCH-L710 using TurboBuick Mobile mobile app

I was going to say that. Hope its been changed.

Power comes from moving air and fuel. Just because you run a lot of boost doesn't mean anything. You need to work on maximizing the car on a lower boost level and try and figure out what it likes and doesn't. Arbitrarily throwing a bunch of boost doesn't solve anything but get head gaskets popped out. It has to do with back pressure. Think of blowing air through a coffee straw.

Only increase boost as the car responds to it. If not.. you'll end up with 35 psi at 12.0 time slip.

Your 60 foot needs work. Exhaust needs work. Keeping engine RPM's under 5k with a stock cam=locking converter. getting slip down(locking converter)..

Me.. install timing chain if that hasnt been done.. then down pipe, open cutout, bring boost down to 23 psi.. and play with timing and air fuel at that lower boost level. Figure out what gives the most MPH at that lower boost. This will tell you what the motor likes. Apply that knowledge to 24, 25, 26, etc PSI.. and every psi the MPH should pickup if the motor responds properly. I use the pickup speed in MPH from 1/8-1/4. If your 1/8 MPH goes up and the 1/4 doesn't respond the same.. back it down and look. At your performance level i'd say 22-23 mph pickup. So 90 in the 1/8 should be 112-113 in the 1/4

Understand leakdown and condition of motor plays a role in this. If its tired.. its tired.

The fastest stock turbo, stock long block car ran 11.37 at 116.50. 1.50 60 foot, 28x9 slicks, 28 psi 1st gear and 23-24 through the traps. 45-50 degree weather 92 octane fuel, and meth injection.

Getting that 60 down 2 tenths.. and managing rpms.. gets you there

Hope this helps.

 

[TurboDave]

Razor has made some good points. But what I have seen when probing into the data on your log, the reason I see your performance isn't up to par with the rest of the data is your running extremely low timing for race conditions. 21.2 is great for the street but not for optimum track performance. As an example when I was racing I ran upwards of 27+ psi of boost, and a bit over 24 degrees of wot advance, sometimes higher. BUT..... I ran race gas with octane high enough to support those numbers.

Now, with all that being said, I'm not an alky guy so I can't tell you what might be optimum for your setup, but you will need to get the timing up a good bit higher to get the most out of your tune. Try lower boost, say maybe 25, and start sneaking up the timing till you tickle the knock sensor. May have to fiddle with how much alky is being sprayed also. Too many variables for me. I'd rather run 114 octane or higher race fuel and only have to worry about timing and boost. Alky just adds a 3rd variable that I never wanted to mess with. But you have it, so learn to work with it.
You can't just throw boost at it expecting good results. You have to work with AFR and Timing along with boost.

What was going on from time frame 46.05 to about 47.8?? Looks like a ton of tire spin. Well maybe just some at 46.2. The RPM trace is doing some strange things.

 

[wb's87]

I was going to say that. Hope its been changed.

Power comes from moving air and fuel. Just because you run a lot of boost doesn't mean anything. You need to work on maximizing the car on a lower boost level and try and figure out what it likes and doesn't. Arbitrarily throwing a bunch of boost doesn't solve anything but get head gaskets popped out. It has to do with back pressure. Think of blowing air through a coffee straw.

Only increase boost as the car responds to it. If not.. you'll end up with 35 psi at 12.0 time slip.

Your 60 foot needs work. Exhaust needs work. Keeping engine RPM's under 5k with a stock cam=locking converter. getting slip down(locking converter)..

Me.. install timing chain if that hasnt been done.. then down pipe, open cutout, bring boost down to 23 psi.. and play with timing and air fuel at that lower boost level. Figure out what gives the most MPH at that lower boost. This will tell you what the motor likes. Apply that knowledge to 24, 25, 26, etc PSI.. and every psi the MPH should pickup if the motor responds properly. I use the pickup speed in MPH from 1/8-1/4. If your 1/8 MPH goes up and the 1/4 doesn't respond the same.. back it down and look. At your performance level i'd say 22-23 mph pickup. So 90 in the 1/8 should be 112-113 in the 1/4

Understand leakdown and condition of motor plays a role in this. If its tired.. its tired.

The fastest stock turbo, stock long block car ran 11.37 at 116.50. 1.50 60 foot, 28x9 slicks, 28 psi 1st gear and 23-24 through the traps. 45-50 degree weather 92 octane fuel, and meth injection.

Getting that 60 down 2 tenths.. and managing rpms.. gets you there

Hope this helps.

Listen to Julio! Install downpipe. Open dump. Lower boost. Tune A/f and timing. Replace timing chain.

Additionally I would say build boost on launch and check TV cable adjustment.

When I first installed my DP it was good for about 2-4/10's sec in quarter mi. Dump open.

Install A/F monitor if you don't have one.

 

[bison]

Got a buddy of mine with about the same setup, running similar mph.
I am no expert, but i think he needs a tighter converter. 5200 rpm @88mph is too much out if range for a stock cammed motor. (his trans is fine).

Just food for thought.

^^^this. The car is lazy out the back. Should be 2-2.5mph faster for your eighth mph. Id have the converter tightened so it's 2200@0 and also run a taller tire. The car will spool a little slower on the street but will run quite a bit faster when launched with boost. Between both tires and converter there's probably half a second. Flash stall should be 4300 to really get the most. The engine is done at 5000rpm for the most part and most of your third gear is over that. To run really low 11's with a 44 you need quite a bit of timing and low converter slip at 5% or less.

 

[pacecarta]

l

 

[TurboDave]

I guess everything I learned over the past 27 years is out of date? I don't understand the extreme low timing just because you're running alky??
I think I'm glad I kept everything on gas. With 93 octane, 20# of boost and 21° in 1st and 2nd, and 19° in 3rd the car is quite happy and responds like an animal.
And this is street trim.
When I was racing it was a lot more radical on the timing and boost.

I guess I don't understand the street trim timing ya'll are having to run with alky.